93 replies to this topic

[Tyler Valentine]

mogs01gt, on 12 January 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

I dont think structure buffs protect weapons from getting crit'd.

They don't. BUT, if my RT hasn't been destroyed and my CT is orange then I can get off a few more AC20 shots before going down. Just one example. Again, you don't always lose all your weapons, actually I rarely lose them ALL, so the quirks definitely help.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

The two most meta-compliant Orions I can think of:
ON1-IIC-B
PROTECTOR
ON1-K

As you can see, in the current meta the Onion IICs simply sh!t all over the regular Onions.

And for brawl builds?
ON1-VA
ON1-IIC-A

I dunno, I did far better with my Onion IICs than the originals. Although, I don't have a Protector.

mogs01gt, on 12 January 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

I dont think structure buffs protect weapons from getting crit'd.

Nope, that extra structure on my HBK-4G hunch is worthless. The moment I lose my armor, that AC20 is gone. Like... gone... I've actually had the AC20 critted out while the internal structure on that hunch wasn't even touched...

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 12 January 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 12 January 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Nope, that extra structure on my HBK-4G hunch is worthless. The moment I lose my armor, that AC20 is gone. Like... gone... I've actually had the AC20 critted out while the internal structure on that hunch wasn't even touched...

50HP AC20 would help that...it has 1.8 HP/Crit, while almost every item in the game is at 10.
Even at 50, it would only be 5 HP/Crit.

[Mystere]

Barantor, on 12 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

The main problem with both is the low weapon mounts that aren't missiles. Something has to be done so that the meta changes or is altered away from the corner peek/hill peek methodology of what makes a good mech, either through bonuses or reductions in capacity for those mechs hardpoints.

A bunch of fully-urban maps filled with skyscrapers should take care of that.

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

One advantage the Orion does have is that AC20 > CUAC20

Well, for me, that's before I learned to double-tap that CUAC20 -- into the enemy's back.

[Scout Derek]

Mystere, on 12 January 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Well, for me, that's before I learned to double-tap that CUAC20 -- into the enemy's back.

It's always fun to do, and the Orion IIC does it very well with the loadout I presented in the 1st post I had, I use it all the time, it's a showstopper to any mech I meet, however, it gets really hot at times and I have to manage my heat or risk a shutdown losing precious time in battle, elsewise I get eaten up like a 60 ton clan heavy.

[WarHippy]

The only change I think needs to happen is in regard to mobility. They both should have the same quirks, or at least similar quirks for mobility. I'm fine with one being tanky and the other carrying a bigger stick, but they really should have similar movement capabilities. This goes for all of the IS mechs and their Clan counterparts.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Except the meta is long range laser vomit. Hence why the Orion IIC with a UAC20 isnt a top tier mech anyway.

I dont get how comparing two Orions that arnt even effective meta builds proves anything. If you want to prove a point you need to compare the best mechs, or at least best Orions, each faction has to offer, you know the builds people actually use? .

Only a fool will make general conclusions about balance when ONLY considering the current Meta. Really, do you think all Mechs should be compared strictly based on their ability to vomit lasers? That would imply the Meta never changes, because only under that circumstance would your approach be valid for overall Mech tuning and balance.

[Scout Derek]

WarHippy, on 12 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

The only change I think needs to happen is in regard to mobility. They both should have the same quirks, or at least similar quirks for mobility. I'm fine with one being tanky and the other carrying a bigger stick, but they really should have similar movement capabilities. This goes for all of the IS mechs and their Clan counterparts.

This. I can't like this enough. This would be another fix to the difference between the two should it ever arrive.

[mogs01gt]

Prosperity Park, on 12 January 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Only a fool will make general conclusions about balance when ONLY considering the current Meta. Really, do you think all Mechs should be compared strictly based on their ability to vomit lasers? That would imply the Meta never changes, because only under that circumstance would your approach be valid for overall Mech tuning and balance.

The meta hasnt changed for years.....

[Depressing-Fire]

RACs! RACs! RACs!

Also HAGs! HAGs! HAGs!

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Orion IIc is amazing compared to IS Orion.

It's a great brawler with SRMS and AC20. Also a great LRM x 70 platform with almost 2k ammo. Great for CW.

Edited by xMADCATTERx, 12 January 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[Barantor]

Scout Derek, on 12 January 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

This is wrong, the IIC can also use a STD engine as well.

Changed my post, didn't realize that as I'm not a clanner. Glad they can change engines, but clan weaponry still makes up for some of it.

In the end it's about the hardpoint locations, not the specifics of clan vs IS.

[Mcgral18]

xMADCATTERx, on 12 January 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

Also a great LRM x 70 platform with almost 2k ammo. Great for CW.

There's a certain Clam 75 tonner that's good for CW...this isn't it.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Well it can pull almost 2k on its own and does a good job at suppressing, moving at 90kph.

[Mystere]

WarHippy, on 12 January 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

The only change I think needs to happen is in regard to mobility. They both should have the same quirks, or at least similar quirks for mobility. I'm fine with one being tanky and the other carrying a bigger stick, but they really should have similar movement capabilities. This goes for all of the IS mechs and their Clan counterparts.

This should actually be a general rule applied to all Mechs and their IIC equivalents.

[Mcgral18]

xMADCATTERx, on 12 January 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Well it can pull almost 2k on its own and does a good job at suppressing, moving at 90kph.

Timby can easily pull 2k damage on its own, against Terribads you can go 3k+.

Onion lacks E hardpoints for that. Quad LPL, I believe, is the best it can manage (in the laserboat category).

[Barantor]

Mcgral18, on 12 January 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

There's a certain Clam 75 tonner that's good for CW...this isn't it.

To be fair the IS Orion M I did 1400 damage in with LRMs once.... lol. Not in CW though, this was before that.

[kapusta11]

I agree, structure quirks are OP.

Most IS mechs that did get them (Banshees, Stalkers, Battlemasters, Wolverines, you know, mechs you often see in CW, didn't) got half internal structure amount. Component total HP is 1.5x armor because internal structure is 0.5x armor so with quirks that is 1.75x. 1.75 is more than 1.5 by 16.7%.

So yeah, apparently with current FTL TTK 16.7% is OP

Mcgral18, on 12 January 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Timby can easily pull 2k damage on its own, against Terribads you can go 3k+.

Onion lacks E hardpoints for that. Quad LPL, I believe, is the best it can manage (in the laserboat category).

Looks like it should be good at poking with Gauss, 2 LPLs and cockpit all in one side. Don't own one so can't tell for sure.

Edited by kapusta11, 12 January 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Really, do you think all Mechs should be compared strictly based on their ability to vomit lasers?

yes because laser vomiting is the easiest way to win

do I like that being the case? no I dont. but thats how the game is lol.

And as long as thats how the game is im going to rate mechs based on how well they vomit lasers.

Quote

I agree, structure quirks are OP.

I think theyre fine on mechs with oversized hitbox issues like the dragon with its massive CT.

but structure quirks are highly questionable on mechs like the blackjack, why is that thing as tanky as an assault? it makes no sense and its in no way balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 12 January 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

One advantage the Orion does have is that AC20 > CUAC20
doing 20 damage at a time is way better than doing 5 damage in multiple bursts, especially against moving targets that are torso twisting around

I wouldent say the AC20 is better because of that fact. Dealing 40 damage, instead of 20, is kinda a big deal. Double damage, even if it is spread does have its place, especially if you hold it on the section of the mech. Fast moving targets and torso twisting can only go so far.

Mcgral18, on 12 January 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Timby can easily pull 2k damage on its own, against Terribads you can go 3k+.

Onion lacks E hardpoints for that. Quad LPL, I believe, is the best it can manage (in the laserboat category).

You can get the same scores in the onion iic, it doesnt need laser vomit. It has 2 LPL 2 uac10. Just bring enough ammo.

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

yes because laser vomiting is the easiest way to win

do I like that being the case? no I dont. but thats how the game is lol.

And as long as thats how the game is im going to rate mechs based on how well they vomit lasers.

Laser vomit may be the easiest way to win, but real pro's will kill you with a combination of laser's + uac's, erppc's / guass, brawling builds ( ac20, srm's, med laser's ) pro's dont need laser vomit to win. They can win with pretty much anything that is good.

Scrubs rely on laser vomit, because they lack the skill to be truly good at everything ( brawling, sniping, etc )

Edited by Alwrath, 12 January 2016 - 01:17 PM.