93 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

One more thing about the IIc is the size of the missile racks taking damage at about a 50% faster rate. I mean that big one in the shoulder is actually the arm section which literally flies off at the first shot sometimes followed by the left torso. Bad design. That shoulder rack should be in the right hand, but now it needs serious armor and structure buffs to be balanced.

Also the Orion IIc gets stuck in architecture that the standard Orion does not.

Edited by Lightfoot, 12 January 2016 - 08:18 PM.

[Khobai]

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The only weapon the Clan gets that is better than Inner Sphere is the ER Medium Laser.

clan large pulse is probably the single best weapon in the game

but yeah the CERML and CLPL are literally the only two superior weapons clans get. everything else is blatantly inferior or at best equal to their IS counterparts.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

clan large pulse is probably the single best weapon in the game

but yeah the CERML and CLPL are literally the only two superior weapons clans get. everything else is blatantly inferior or at best equal to their IS counterparts.

Even when you consider Clan weapons are universally lighter and take up fewer criticals, as well as generally having longer range?

No. I'm afraid the list is fairly long. The Gauss Rifle sits at the top. Lighter, smaller. Inferior...how? The fact the Clan weapons have other drawbacks like burn time and high heat are the sort of tradeoffs that are necessary to make them balanced. People forget that because Clan mechs are generally starved for payload with their huge engines. When you compare this stuff on paper you have to remember a Clan mech with an ER Large Laser gets an extra heat sink compared to an IS one carrying the same, and it only costs one more crit.

[Khobai]

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The Gauss Rifle sits at the top.

not after the nerfs it doesnt. theyre hardly even used anymore.

there was a time when the clan gauss rifle was king but that time has past.

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a Clan mech with an ER Large Laser gets an extra heat sink compared to an IS one carrying the same, and it only costs one more crit.

And thats reconciled by Clan DHS having worse heat capacity than IS DHS. They get 0.3 less capacity per heatsink.

Not to mention all the crazyass superquirks that IS mechs get that make their ERLLs completely superior to CERLLs.

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Even when you consider Clan weapons are universally lighter and take up fewer criticals, as well as generally having longer range?

uh what? IS weapons have longer range. +25% range quirk makes the IS ERLL the unrivaled king of long range weapons. While the Clan ERLL is considered mostly unusable due to its absurdly long beam duration.

Literally the only advantage clans have anymore are the CERML and CLPL.

Edited by Khobai, 12 January 2016 - 08:55 PM.

[El Bandito]

As long as both mechs perform roughly even, then that's fine for me.

[Lightfoot]

Well they don't perform roughly even. The standard Orion is much more versatile due to toughness and the IIc has to be played from the shadows because it flies apart as soon as it comes under fire. It's just a little too weak and has a severe weak left side if missiles are equipped due to the 50% larger size. Basically the same problem the original Orion had when first released, but more so.

[Ted Wayz]

Lugh, on 12 January 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Because they have NONE of the ridiculous movement quirks of the IS...

Because of all the IIC's the Orion IIC moves the most like its IS namesake without them.

I think people feel that ZOMG no quirks means that as built it may not be equal. I think people feel that requiring a different playstyle than their IS namesakes means they are worse. You think wrong.

Piloted the Orion IIC in the latest leaderboard event and as long as I didn't screw it up it was a very good mech. This isn't n=1, this is n=57 matches where I was routinely top scorer. I chose the Orion because of all the mechs the handling felt the most like the IS version.

But because they are glass cannons, the IIC's cannot endure or recover from a mistake as easily as their IS counterparts. This is why I understand the perception that the IIC's somehow need quirks. However if you pilot them for what they are, jesus they are all beasts and they all have been raining c-bills on me.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

not after the nerfs it doesnt. theyre hardly even used anymore.

there was a time when the clan gauss rifle was king but that time has past.

That still doesn't explain why the Clan Gauss was and still is cleanly superior to the IS one. I could have just as easily said Clan SRMs or LRMs, which weigh half as much as their IS counterparts. Or weapons that the IS simply doesn't have, like the Streak 6.

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And thats reconciled by Clan DHS having worse heat capacity than IS DHS. They get 0.3 less capacity per heatsink.

Clan DHS have less capacity but more dissipation than IS DHS, while being in a smaller package. I'm afraid your argument, in leaving that crucial bit of information out, just has no merit.

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Not to mention all the crazyass superquirks that IS mechs get that make their ERLLs completely superior to CERLLs.

uh what? IS weapons have longer range. +25% range quirk makes the IS ERLL the unrivaled king of long range weapons. While the Clan ERLL is considered mostly unusable due to its absurdly long beam duration.

Literally the only advantage clans have anymore are the CERML and CLPL.

Have you tried using an ER large or, heaven forbid, a regular large laser on an IS mech that didn't have laser range quirks? Not every chassis has them. In fact only a few actually have the combination that make them into specialized sniper mechs. The performance of highly quirked chassis says very little about the health of the whole weapons package.

The fact that the clan tech isn't holding all the cards any more doesn't mean it's in dire straights by any means.

[Curccu]

Adamski, on 12 January 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

The shorter the range, the less of a penalty the burst fire of Clan UAC is. When you are talking about the AC20 / UAC20, they have such a short range, the burst fire is hardly a penalty, and is absolutely worth the reduced weight and the double tap ability.

UAC20 is worthless, I will take AC20 over it any day.

[Imperius]

Scout Derek, on 12 January 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Not complaining, just wanting new tech. If I were to complain I would have said "Rant over" at the end of this.

You'd want new tech too, wouldn't you? Come on, don't you want the Arrow (Not the hero mech the Missile weapon) on your Catapult so you could scare everyone away because of it's range and damage? Or how about RACs?


Was going to add that in as well, forgot about that.

Anyone who didn't want me to get the Mad Cat MK II due to timeline also said they don't want new weapons in the game. So thanks to a lot of the geriatrics in the community we get zero new nice things good day!

[Widowmaker1981]

Scout Derek, on 12 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

What I'm getting at is that IS mechs have the armor to take damage but don't have the weapons to do the best damage, while the Clans have the weapons to do damage but do not have the armor to sustain it.

The IS large pulse is the best weapon in the game even unquirked, not sure what you are talking about there. (ERLL has a place in CW, but outside that? LPL all day, every day.

[Nightshade24]

Adamski, on 12 January 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Since its structure quirks and not armor quirks, it still leaves the IS mech missing its weapons very quickly, especially with TC1 buffing all the Clan crits against internal components.

EDIT: I really don't want PGI messing around with adding more weapons and tech until we can get closer to balanced now.

In fact, I would rather have everything balanced and the timeline frozen than having to go through the hell that is 2 years of balance Russian roulette hoping that every patch gets things right.

tbh.... I think it's trying to achieve "balance" is what caused all these issues... there can be found perfection in unbalance....

[Scout Derek]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 January 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

The IS large pulse is the best weapon in the game even unquirked, not sure what you are talking about there. (ERLL has a place in CW, but outside that? LPL all day, every day.

So, just one weapon then huh? You've proved my point then. That there's no mix to the game, and that both sides can't rival in the two categories instead of x being x and y being y.

[Widowmaker1981]

Fleeb the Mad, on 12 January 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

Have you tried using an ER large or, heaven forbid, a regular large laser on an IS mech that didn't have laser range quirks? Not every chassis has them. In fact only a few actually have the combination that make them into specialized sniper mechs. The performance of highly quirked chassis says very little about the health of the whole weapons package.

Why would you do that? Build to the quirks..

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Lightfoot, on 12 January 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Well they don't perform roughly even. The standard Orion is much more versatile due to toughness and the IIc has to be played from the shadows because it flies apart as soon as it comes under fire. It's just a little too weak and has a severe weak left side if missiles are equipped due to the 50% larger size. Basically the same problem the original Orion had when first released, but more so.

Wow, never thought id see people complain about a 75 ton clan mech with more weapons payload than alot of assault mechs. Guess I assumed too much.

Curccu, on 12 January 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

UAC20 is worthless, I will take AC20 over it any day.

How is a 400m 40 damage weapon useless again?

[Scout Derek]

Alwrath, on 13 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Wow, never thought id see people complain about a 75 ton clan mech with more weapons payload than alot of assault mechs. Guess I assumed too much.

The problem is that unlike other mechs, this one is crafted in a way to be a brawler, but cannot take the beating.

This weekend I intend to do a damage test with someone recording if they'd like to show the difference in durability, speed, and firepower. (Orion IIC VS IS Orion)

Alwrath, on 13 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

How is a 400m 40 damage weapon useless again?

People deem them useless because they do not like the spread damage that the shells cause, and rather prefer pinpoint. This is also true when you factor in hit reg and other wonky game issues.

Edited by Scout Derek, 13 January 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Fleeb the Mad, on 12 January 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

When you compare this stuff on paper you have to remember a Clan mech with an ER Large Laser gets an extra heat sink compared to an IS one carrying the same, and it only costs one more crit.

You then have to factor in any quirks which modify that. Just a 10% heat quirk is a MASSIVE change. the factor in burn time/duration for any given weapon.
Short duration+lower heat+structure quirks=very good edge generally.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Alwrath, on 13 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Wow, never thought id see people complain about a 75 ton clan mech with more weapons payload than alot of assault mechs. Guess I assumed too much.



How is a 400m 40 damage weapon useless again?

Pairs of UAC 10's perform better.

[Curccu]

Alwrath, on 13 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

How is a 400m 40 damage weapon useless again?

Because AC20 is BANG = 20 damage to one location easy to aim and able to twist after that
UAC20 DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA = that 40 damage of yours spread all over enemy mech (if that pilot knows how to twist and spread damage) and all shooter have to stare that enemy you are shooting for a too long time and eat shitloads of damage to CT or whatever location other enemies choose to focus.

Shorter answer: UAC20 is non-hitscan ballistic weapon that has burn time = BAD

[Lightfoot]

Alwrath, on 13 January 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Wow, never thought id see people complain about a 75 ton clan mech with more weapons payload than alot of assault mechs. Guess I assumed too much.



How is a 400m 40 damage weapon useless again?

It's feedback. The Orion IIc has a left side that is blown off faster than any medium or light mech's but it moves 50% slower so has almost no deflection. Have you piloted the Orion IIc with missiles equipped? You lose the left arm on the first shot usually and the left torso on the second. I am not the one who created the weapon duration times, but when most of the weapons are streams or beams with duration times the bigger and object is the more damage it absorbs. That's why the Orion IIc's left torso explodes in seconds of coming under fire and is not working as intended. It has the same problems as the original Orion's left shoulder, but tripled in severity.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 January 2016 - 12:31 PM.