93 replies to this topic

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

xMADCATTERx, on 13 January 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Pairs of UAC 10's perform better.

Wow really? I had no idea. /sarcasm

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Scout Derek, on 13 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The problem is that unlike other mechs, this one is crafted in a way to be a brawler, but cannot take the beating.

Sorry to break it to you, but the mech has access to clan weaponry, which have plenty of mid to long range options. Brawling is not something clan mechs do often in the first place, why would you declare the Orion iic a " brawling mech "? You make no sense.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Curccu, on 13 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Because AC20 is BANG = 20 damage to one location easy to aim and able to twist after that
UAC20 DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA = that 40 damage of yours spread all over enemy mech (if that pilot knows how to twist and spread damage) and all shooter have to stare that enemy you are shooting for a too long time and eat shitloads of damage to CT or whatever location other enemies choose to focus.

Shorter answer: UAC20 is non-hitscan ballistic weapon that has burn time = BAD

Well I can unload a double tap in the same amount of time as my ermed laser burn. I guess since ermed face time according to you is bad so I guess you declare laserpuke being bad. How about you refrain from giving out false information if your new to the game? Uac20 with lasers is a devastating combo.

[Dimento Graven]

Adamski, on 12 January 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

...

In fact, I would rather have everything balanced and the timeline frozen than having to go through the hell that is 2 years of balance Russian roulette hoping that every patch gets things right.

I honestly don't think we'd notice any difference from the previous two years...

[Lykaon]

Scout Derek, on 12 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yeah, I said it. It's the complete opposite of the orion in some categories.

Why?

Well, let's look at it.

First off, the Orion IIC can carry much, much more than its IS counterpart. It can also use a Clan XL, which is a huge advantage even with the penalties.

One problem I see, though, is the quirking here for the IS Orion.

Now let's compare the two builds I've prepared, the Orion IIC Lighter Atlas build, and the Orion Mini Atlas Build:

Orion IIC

Orion IS(M Variant was the closest I could get to the IIC verison)

So the IIC gets more Damage and Speed (Thanks for reminder Gas Guzzler), while the IS gets, well, a slower engine and a STD. Here's where the quirkening comes in.

ORION QUIRKS:


They look fair, right?

Well, sort of. The weapon quirks and others are fine, but what gets me are the Structure quirks. These were implemented when the Skill Tree was knocked down a bit so that mechs could be more survivable.

Yet, the Clan mechs got a few, if not any, quirks to complement this. Even before this, IS mechs had Structure quirks, and now they've been beefed up even more.

What I'm getting at is that IS mechs have the armor to take damage but don't have the weapons to do the best damage, while the Clans have the weapons to do damage but do not have the armor to sustain it.


And this problem is going to keep staying this way unless new tech is implemented, such as the other IS Ultra Autocannons, and the clans Heavy Lasers, or even the IS X-Pulse Lasers.

At least this is what I see in my eyes. If PGI can gives us some new tech I'm more than happy with the game than what's already coming.

EDIT: Orion IIC has another advantage against the IS counterpart when no quirks are involved.

How is this actually a problem?

Inner Sphere mechs are tough and slow with lower damage output.

Clan mechs are faster with higher damage output.

That clan Orion has over 80 kph speed so it will have improved mobility. This translates into more dodging and breaking to and from cover reducing exposure and more opertunities to fire. While the I.S. Orion with 66 kph will be exposed longer as it moves from cover to cover and have a longer travel time to pursue or gain fire lane on an enemy mech (meaning fewer opertunities to shoot)

This is how clan vs IS quirks should work and not the stupid weapon quirking that gives I.S. mechs longer range AND superior DPS to clan tech.

I like structure quirking yet dislike most weapon quirking. I feel the goal should be

Clan mechs are faster with better range and higher DPS with high heat.

I.S. mechs are very sturdy with good heat disapation for sustained damage output.

The clans will prevail if they play aggressivley and use the speed and spike damage to their advantage.Fighting like a fencer.

The I.S. have strength in long grinding battles soaking damage while dealing sustainable levels of damage with good heat dissapation.Fighting like a boxer.

[Scout Derek]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

How is this actually a problem?

Inner Sphere mechs are tough and slow with lower damage output.

Clan mechs are faster with higher damage output.

That clan Orion has over 80 kph speed so it will have improved mobility. This translates into more dodging and breaking to and from cover reducing exposure and more opertunities to fire. While the I.S. Orion with 66 kph will be exposed longer as it moves from cover to cover and have a longer travel time to pursue or gain fire lane on an enemy mech (meaning fewer opertunities to shoot)

This is how clan vs IS quirks should work and not the stupid weapon quirking that gives I.S. mechs longer range AND superior DPS to clan tech.

I like structure quirking yet dislike most weapon quirking. I feel the goal should be

Clan mechs are faster with better range and higher DPS with high heat.

I.S. mechs are very sturdy with good heat disapation for sustained damage output.

The clans will prevail if they play aggressivley and use the speed and spike damage to their advantage.Fighting like a fencer.

The I.S. have strength in long grinding battles soaking damage while dealing sustainable levels of damage with good heat dissapation.Fighting like a boxer.

Interesting point, however, it is hard to explain this to new players or player whom don't want to play this way.

Isn't this game about allowing people to play however they want, with the side of teamwork at it too?

This is where it gets controversial, and (Excuse me if I offend), but, I fell that we shouldn't have to force people to play clan mechs aggressively or IS mechs patiently, sometimes people want to swap those roles, or, even more, by doing something different.

[Sandpit]

Scout Derek, on 12 January 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yeah, I said it. It's the complete opposite of the orion in some categories.

Why?

Well, let's look at it.

First off, the Orion IIC can carry much, much more than its IS counterpart. It can also use a Clan XL, which is a huge advantage even with the penalties.

One problem I see, though, is the quirking here for the IS Orion.

Now let's compare the two builds I've prepared, the Orion IIC Lighter Atlas build, and the Orion Mini Atlas Build:

Orion IIC

Orion IS(M Variant was the closest I could get to the IIC verison)

So the IIC gets more Damage and Speed (Thanks for reminder Gas Guzzler), while the IS gets, well, a slower engine and a STD. Here's where the quirkening comes in.

ORION QUIRKS:


They look fair, right?

Well, sort of. The weapon quirks and others are fine, but what gets me are the Structure quirks. These were implemented when the Skill Tree was knocked down a bit so that mechs could be more survivable.

Yet, the Clan mechs got a few, if not any, quirks to complement this. Even before this, IS mechs had Structure quirks, and now they've been beefed up even more.

What I'm getting at is that IS mechs have the armor to take damage but don't have the weapons to do the best damage, while the Clans have the weapons to do damage but do not have the armor to sustain it.


And this problem is going to keep staying this way unless new tech is implemented, such as the other IS Ultra Autocannons, and the clans Heavy Lasers, or even the IS X-Pulse Lasers.

At least this is what I see in my eyes. If PGI can gives us some new tech I'm more than happy with the game than what's already coming.

EDIT: Orion IIC has another advantage against the IS counterpart when no quirks are involved.

well lets see
I've piloted both mechs

Yes, the IIC (as with every other IIC) carries more firepower and tends to be faster

It's also a LOT squishier due to no quirks and structure bonuses
It also runs a LOT hotter due to no quirks

It's a trade-off just like 90% of the rest of the mechs and builds out there.

[Lightfoot]

Again the left arm and left side torso are destroyed way too fast due to the enormous volume of the missile launchers absorbing double the damage more or less. The arm missile launcher in the shoulder should have been placed in the right arm/hand like on the standard Orions. Why this was not done is strange, a design decision for modular rather than fixed launchers maybe, but now it needs structure and armor buffs to offer minimum functionality that one would expect for a heavy mech.

[Mawai]

I'm not sure what point the OP is making ...

Clans in general have fewer hit points these days but greater damage/alpha. IS has more hit points and lower damage. I think this is how PGI is balancing clans vs IS while making them different. The IIC mechs and the latest round of quirks just show it best since they are the most recent changes.

If one side has mechs that do 2 times damage while they have 1/2 armor and the opponents have weapons that do 1/2 damage but their armor is doubled then the time to kill for the two sides happens to be identical even though they will feel very different. Of course, the differences aren't a factor of 2 and the effects of things like clan XL and the wide variety of mechs on both sides make overall balancing much more challenging ... but the basic concept is a reasonable way to distinguish clan and IS while making them somewhat balanced against each other. On the other hand, clan vs clan ... the time to kill is reduced and IS vs IS and the time to kill is increased with a balancing strategy like this one.

[Mawai]

Lykaon, on 13 January 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

...

This is how clan vs IS quirks should work and not the stupid weapon quirking that gives I.S. mechs longer range AND superior DPS to clan tech.

...

Although I agree that there may be better ways to balance clan and IS than weapon quirks. Your statement above is NOT true in general. IS mechs do not have longer range and superior DPS. Most don't. Some specific weapons on some specific mechs may have a longer range. IS ERLL on mechs with a 10% energy range quirk or better are actually the only example where the IS has a range advantage ... and that only comes into play at ranges about 800+m. i.e. in most situations it is completely meaningless.

As for DPS ... the situation is similar.

A clan ERML has a DPS of 1.69 while an IS ML has a DPS of 1.28. Even if the IS ML had a zero second duration .. 100% duration quirk ... it would still only have a DPS of 1.66. The medium laser is the work horse for both clan and IS due to the low tonnage and slot requirements. However, the clan version has a massive range and DPS advantage no matter what quirks IS mechs have.

So again .. your general comment that IS mechs have a range and DPS advantage over clans is a complete myth. There are some limited specific mechs and builds for which this may be true but it is not a general situation.

[Lightfoot]

Mawai, on 13 January 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure what point the OP is making ...

Clans in general have fewer hit points these days but greater damage/alpha. IS has more hit points and lower damage. I think this is how PGI is balancing clans vs IS while making them different. The IIC mechs and the latest round of quirks just show it best since they are the most recent changes.

If one side has mechs that do 2 times damage while they have 1/2 armor and the opponents have weapons that do 1/2 damage but their armor is doubled then the time to kill for the two sides happens to be identical even though they will feel very different. Of course, the differences aren't a factor of 2 and the effects of things like clan XL and the wide variety of mechs on both sides make overall balancing much more challenging ... but the basic concept is a reasonable way to distinguish clan and IS while making them somewhat balanced against each other. On the other hand, clan vs clan ... the time to kill is reduced and IS vs IS and the time to kill is increased with a balancing strategy like this one.

Clan weapons are not 2x more powerful than IS, they are actually weaker except for the ER medium laser. Clan weapons are all nerfed by streaming the damage and extending the duration. This neutralizes the smaller and lighter weapons and the extended range except for the ER Medium. So if a mech can't boat ER Mediums it is much weaker than those that can. Well the Orion IIc and HGN IIc can't boat energy at all getting 2 to 3 energy hardpoints usually. The IIcs can carry a bit more sometimes, but they are still too fragile to be mechs. You should be able to take more than one solid hit and the IIcs can't. The only way to make the IIcs work at all is to never be shot at at all.

[Lykaon]

Scout Derek, on 13 January 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Interesting point, however, it is hard to explain this to new players or player whom don't want to play this way.

Isn't this game about allowing people to play however they want, with the side of teamwork at it too?

This is where it gets controversial, and (Excuse me if I offend), but, I fell that we shouldn't have to force people to play clan mechs aggressively or IS mechs patiently, sometimes people want to swap those roles, or, even more, by doing something different.

No offense taken.

Here is the thing. In general Clan mechs could function as aggressive fast hitters yet there are some exceptions. A Direwolf is by no means a rapid strike platform compared to even the slowest of I.S. assault mechs the Direwolf is at best an equal in manuverability and speed. What the Direwolf does do that no I.S. 100 ton mech can is pack on 50+ tons of weapons and have a clan XL to allow the Dire to survive where an I.S. assault would pop in seconds.

LRM based Maddogs are also less rapid strike and more back field lurker and opertunist.

Sniper build Shadowcats are more geared towards snipe and repossition to avoid reprisal and being locked down.

There are several clan mechs that do not fit the mold of rapid striker but overall the clan combat plan should be based upon their strengths of mobility and spike damage.There is always room in a team for support chassis to assist the bulk of a team of rapid strikers. Need some area denial to prevent the fast moving battle line from being flanked...LRM plaform or ECM Snipers. Want to ancor a territory? Cover the approach with a Direwolf with 6x UAC5s.

You did over simplify things a bit as well. A mech with high durability and excellent cooling efficency isn't just a "patient" mech it's a mech that has the ability to advance slowly through a hail of weapon fire while returning fire and still have enough armor and heat dissapation to be a threat once it gets there to aggressivley brawl with the enemy.

A fast agile mech with excellent spike damage but less effective heat dissapation is not neccissarily only good at run and gun fighting. It may be an excellent hide and poke fighter (a patient mans game if ever there was one) Using superior mobility to take the best hidey holes and use the superior agility to move in and out of cover while shooting long ranged very hot weapon fire.Retiring into cover between salvos to cool.

As it is now the glut of (frequently) excessive quirks on I.S. mechs does more to limit choices than gentle nudging into a general combat style. Do I take a mediocre Catapult K2 or the super Quirked Thunderbolts? Pilot a Crab or a Blackjack with the structure of an Atlas? There is a reason why in CW high comp teams have obscene amounts of Er Large Lasers on mechs with 20% + range quirks...it's because it wins and it's boardering on mandatory to do so.Building to maximize overly specific quirks is probably the most limiting factor on a mech these days.

This is why I am generally opposed to specific weapon quirking. And in favor of generic weapon type quirking.

A mech with medium pulse laser cooldown,medium pulse laser range and medium pulse laser heat generation quirks will not likely ever see any other weapon system installed on it. But if these were say generic energy quirks we at least have a wider array of weapons to equip than just the medium pulse lasers.

[Lightfoot]

So far I have been able to transfer any load-out from the Orion IIc to the Mad Cat by just trading down to ER Mediums which lose range but boost damage. Mad Cat rarely overheats while the Orion IIc (which is Mastered with the bonus module slot) is always overheating. So what to do? Shelve the Orion IIc and use a Mad Cat instead. Unless PGI gets over the fear of the IIcs and makes them comparable to other mechs there is not much reason to use any of them.

[Khobai]

Quote

Clans in general have fewer hit points these days but greater damage/alpha. IS has more hit points and lower damage.

clans dont really have universally better damage though.

they have better damage in CERTAIN RANGE BANDS. But IS completely outdamages clans at long range. Because of dumb crap like +25% laser range quirks.

Quote

A clan ERML has a DPS of 1.69 while an IS ML has a DPS of 1.28.

The clan ERML should be 6 damage for 5 heat instead of 7 damage for 6 heat though... it should also have 3.25 cooldown instead of 3.00 cooldown. It would still do better dps than the ISML but it would be much closer to being equal.

405m is also too long range for the ERML it should be 360m range at most. Thats still 33% longer range than the ISML but again its closer to where it needs to be for purposes of being equal.

They need to rebalance clan and IS tech better at the base level. That way they can get rid of the need to use weapon quirks as a means of balance.

This is what they SHOULD look like:
CERML = 6 damage, 5 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.15 duration, 360m range
ISML = 5 damage, 4 heat, 3.0 cooldown, 0.9 duration, 270m range

Now we have two weapons that are pretty darn close to being equal

Thats so much better than CERML practically being a 1 ton large laser... and then IS needing super quirks to buff all their stuff to the same level.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2016 - 02:47 PM.