109 replies to this topic

[noleet]

Hi fellas,

I am just wondering whats been happening with the blackjack recently. It becomes the new op mech seemingly.

Having a look at the quirks reveals a 100% internal armor buff. I don't know if this is the cause why they are seemingly unkillable or their skill. However, a test I did with a friend in private match: a still standing blackjack, with an alpha of 81 in the front (optimal range) while standing still by myself. I aimed for his CT and his right torso internal turned yellow. Second shot, same alpha, aiming for torso while both moving together at max speed within optimal laser range, torso orange. Nothing more.

Played now ~200 matches in my high alpha build and everything popped but blackjacks. I literally give up killing blackjacks with lasers like i did with cheetahs prior phase 4 (which now are kill-able with lasers). Is that just a bug with my lazors or do others have the same issue killing blackjacks?

Cheers

nl

[MischiefSC]

Side torso. Left side. They are all xl and being IS a st loss kills them.

Do left side and when they turn away to shelter their right side you shoot that ridge just forward from the shoulder. This let's you pop the St even when they try to shield.

Left torso.

[mailin]

Otherwise, how are their legs? CT too tough? Go for the legs.

[Monkey Lover]

insane? It has 5 er mediums worth of quirks. Seeings you're running a clan mech put on a targeting computer and watch the sides crit out almost every alpha.

[Khobai]

It is insane. It has the internal structure of an assault mech. Its completely stupid.

the worst part is its not even a brawler. its a freaking sniper mech. yet for some reason they turned it into a tank? while actual brawlers like the centurion get !@#$ for structure quirks.

the blackjack having that much structure is literally an indefensible argument... theres absolutely no logical reason behind it whatsoever.

Edited by Khobai, 12 January 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Top image is before bottom one is after removing armor(quirks worth). No ways the best games but they're the few i did in the last hour.. Go ahead and keep up the "op structure" Its not going to matter if they nerf it. Really the only thing i found is it drop the arms way to easy without the quirks. CT stuff was about the same.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 January 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[Chagatay]

Should just 1/2 the quirks, put them on the Enforcer Vindicator**, and call it a day. Insane indeed...but then again so is all this mega quirk chasing nonsense.

I mean out of all the crap* they could have quirked and they quirk something that was already a pretty darn good mech.

*Seriously, there are so many more medium mechs that could use love (most mentioned already).
** So terrible that I initially put a mech down that doesn't need any help...forgive me Chancellor.

Edited by Chagatay, 12 January 2016 - 10:03 PM.

[NeoGenesis For Answer]

Monkey Lover, on 12 January 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

stuff

I'm not entirely sure whether or not your evidence supports his point or yours....

Not that I care too much anymore, hit everything enough times they eventually die. Helps being able to drop ppcs into targets a kilometer away though under ecm cover...

[nitra]

actually i feel the current bj is where most mechs should be at . in stead of the insta pop game play we have now where mechs just get insta killed any more (ttk is far to short regardless of the exaggeration) . with that said i still fail to see the bj being that big of deal sure it has a bit better longevity and you have to concentrate a bit on them when fighting them . but all mechs need the bjs ability to tank damage .

so no, no nerf to bjs buff all mechs like the bj !!!! cept maybe some of those troublesome lights.

Edited by nitra, 12 January 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

NeoGenesis For Answer, on 12 January 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'm not entirely sure whether or not your evidence supports his point or yours....

Not that I care too much anymore, hit everything enough times they eventually die. Helps being able to drop ppcs into targets a kilometer away though under ecm cover...

Thats what i found more than anything. When i die its because of focus fire. Little extra armor never changed my game around. I guess maybe these quirks are op in the lower tiers where they spread dmg and dont focus.

[Alistair Winter]

I'm not so upset because they accidentally made the BJ too powerful. But how long do they have to wait before they realize they went too far? I mean, really. How long does their lead designer need to look at spreadsheets before getting some hotfix ready?

nitra, on 12 January 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

actually i feel the current bj is where most mechs should be at . in stead of the insta pop game play we have now where mechs just get insta killed any more (ttk is far to short regardless of the exaggeration) . with that said i still fail to see the bj being that big of deal sure it has a bit better longevity and you have to concentrate a bit on them when fighting them . but all mechs need the bjs ability to tank damage .
so no, no nerf to bjs buff all mechs like the bj !!!! cept maybe some of those troublesome lights.

Hyper quirks aren't good for the game. It makes no sense to give all mechs +9000 structure points. If they're going to adjust TTK, it's better to adjust global, underlying factors.

mailin, on 12 January 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Otherwise, how are their legs? CT too tough? Go for the legs.

+22 structure points to legs and side torsos, +28 structure points to the CT.

For the sake of comparison

Centurion (50t):

• Side torso: 48 max armour, 24+6 structure (78 hp)
  
• Center torso: 64 max armour, 32+8 structure (104 hp)
  
• Legs: 48 max armour, 24+4 structure ( 76 hp)

Black Jack (45 t):

• Side torso: 44 max armour, 22+22 structure (88 hp)
  
• Center torso: 56 max armour, 28+28 structure (112 hp)
  
• Legs: 44 max armour, 22+22 structure (88 hp)

Shadowcat Prime (45 t):

• Side torso: 44 max armour, 22 structure (66 hp)
  
• Center torso: 56 max armour, 28 structure (84 hp)
  
• Legs: 44 max armour, 22+7 structure (73 hp)

Khobai, on 12 January 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

It is insane. It has the internal structure of an assault mech. Its completely stupid.
the worst part is its not even a brawler. its a freaking sniper mech. yet for some reason they turned it into a tank? while actual brawlers like the centurion get !@#$ for structure quirks.
the blackjack having that much structure is literally an indefensible argument... theres absolutely no logical reason behind it whatsoever.

I'm fairly certain it's a mistake, since the structure bonus is 100% of the original structure value.

That being said, it's still silly that it takes them months to fix it. And as for roles, PGI never really cared about that. They'll turn the K2 into a ballistic brawler, they'll turn the Thunderbolt into a PPC sniper, they don't care.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 12 January 2016 - 11:13 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Except due to crits internal structure is only about 1/2 a point of armor worth real protection.

So it's about as tanky as a 55 ton Centurion.

[Homeskilit]

Alistair Winter, on 12 January 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

But how long do they have to wait before they realize they went too far? I mean, really. How long does their lead designer need to look at spreadsheets before getting some hotfix ready?

This is what upsets me the most about PGI, It should not even be a hotfix, they should be putting out balance patches every 2-3 weeks not every 2-3 months.

[adamts01]

Monkey Lover, on 12 January 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Little extra armor never changed my game around.

It's not game-breaking extra hp, but given two pilots of equal skill in otherwise comparable builds, the Blackjack will always win.

Alistair Winter, on 12 January 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm not so upset because they accidentally made the BJ too powerful. But how long do they have to wait before they realize they went too far? I mean, really. How long does their lead designer need to look at spreadsheets before getting some hotfix ready?


Hyper quirks aren't good for the game. It makes no sense to give all mechs +9000 structure points. If they're going to adjust TTK, it's better to adjust global, underlying factors.

Of course "hyper quirks" are bad, but the solution can't be a universal change. Some mechs have goofy *** shapes (Jenner), they could never compete with humanoid mechs (Firestarter) without a little hp given to their comparably large body parts.

[NeoGenesis For Answer]

Monkey Lover, on 12 January 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Thats what i found more than anything. When i die its because of focus fire. Little extra armor never changed my game around. I guess maybe these quirks are op in the lower tiers where they spread dmg and dont focus.

It very much could though. Surviving a match with high damage and (relatively) close range lasers, with little armor even in the lower tiers can be indicative of unnecessary over quirking.

My favorite mech the shadow cat (45tonner), only has a single advantage over the BJ and thats ecm. Is ecm enough to cover the disparities between the two mechs? Its not easy to see.
Which I think is why we need something like a Solaris arena event, where people fight in weight classes something like 40-45 tons, 50-55tons and so on (you get the gist of it). If you balanced the game off of stats produced by individual competitions I think it'd be easier to balance some of the tanking and brawling focused mechs.

If arctic cheetahs black jacks thunderbolts and dire wolves (HYPOTHETICAL, DONT SKIN ME ALIVE) over populated the upper tiers then maybe there is a very good case for them being OP.

[noleet]

Thanks for all replies. I guess i am not just equipped with buggy lasers

A BJ has the internal armor as an atlas without buff. The atlas receives 50% surplus like any other IS Mech. The BJ is an exception with 100% buff plus speed plus maneuverability plus high weapon mount plus jump jets plus ....

I also tried to kill them with streaks. All internal armour exposed and orange, 24 streaks, no component dies. WTF?!

Edited by noleet, 12 January 2016 - 10:09 PM.

[smokefield]

bj is where others mechs should be. you can play it, it can take some punishment and it can do some damage. is not op. it is a good mech. And yes..other mechs should get the same treatment so they can be viable again.

[Monkey Lover]

adamts01, on 12 January 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

It's not game-breaking extra hp, but given two pilots of equal skill in otherwise comparable builds, the Blackjack will always win.

Do you remember the battle master with the crazy armor quriks? There were cry threads all about how it had more armor than the dire how it was so "op" . What ended up happening,not one person used it.(at least that i knew) Everyone used the other versions with more weapons over armor.

The only reason people really use the BJ is because its 45 tons and the cda mechs suck. If you have 50 tons you use a better mech. You're seeing so many of them now because Russ made group Q basically a 45 ton mech game.

How many people are using the bj1, bj1dc,bj3? almost none. This really is a issue about bj1x. Im guessing They're trying to balance it with the crow. Even now i would still run a crow over a bj1x.


One more thing, you all do remember its been nerfed twice now. Once when they made the armor quriks and then again a week later. I would turn in my armor quriks for the old energy quirks anyday.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 12 January 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

noleet, on 12 January 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Thanks for all replies. I guess i am not just equipped with buggy lasers

A BJ has the internal armor as an atlas without buff. The atlas receives 50% surplus like any other IS Mech. The BJ is an exception with 100% buff plus speed plus maneuverability plus high weapon mount plus jump jets plus ....

I also tried to kill them with streaks. All internal armour exposed and orange, 24 streaks, no component dies. WTF?!

If you want to kill them you have to kill them like any other fast medium mech. That's with pulse laser spam. Super large alphas work for heavy/assaults smaller fast alphas work for mediums/lights.

I been killing bj's all night with my firestarter a1 and my jenner2c with srms spam. When you aim dont aim for the chest you aim for the crotch. The crotch doesnt move and is the ct.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 12 January 2016 - 11:00 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except due to crits internal structure is only about 1/2 a point of armor worth real protection.

internal structure is worth more than 1/2 a point of armor (probably more like 3/4). youre overvaluing crits. crits are unlikely to strip the mech of all its weapons before it dies.

CW also has a timer. And when IS is rocking 260 tons of mechs that ALL have structure buffs it takes a very long time to attrition through them all. Its very easy for IS to run the clock down in CW because of all the armor/structure that clans have to chew through.

Quote

It's not game-breaking extra hp

Actually it is game-breaking. for the reason I pointed out above. They increased the tonnage and survivability of IS mechs considerably without increasing the amount of time you get to kill them.

Quote

bj is where others mechs should be.

maybe. except other mechs arnt there.

therefore the bj is unbalanced.

Edited by Khobai, 12 January 2016 - 10:32 PM.