121 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

AW0L queues up where we can get insta-games, which usually results in us planet bouncing all night (we are just looking for games, do not really care about trying to tag a planet at this point). Lately we have been running 1 12 man, and a second group of 4-8 size, and consolidate into a single 12 man as we get later into the evening.

[MischiefSC]

There is no impetus to fight other units. All the impetus is to attack however. Thus they avoid each other.

A bounty system would be good.

Also just make 1 queue, not 2, for each border. You fight over 1 world per cycle. The first world is picked at random. After that it's back and forth - attacker wins, next round they are defender. They win again, new world on defenders side opens up. Defender wins they become attacker for next cycle.

That way everyone is in the same queue on the same front. It also slows the pace of world exchange, which mitigates the impact of flip-flopping merc populations. It concentrates populations on each front, increasing pops per front without reducing fronts.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 13 January 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

There is no impetus to fight other units. All the impetus is to attack however. Thus they avoid each other.

A bounty system would be good.

Also just make 1 queue, not 2, for each border. You fight over 1 world per cycle. The first world is picked at random. After that it's back and forth - attacker wins, next round they are defender. They win again, new world on defenders side opens up. Defender wins they become attacker for next cycle.

That way everyone is in the same queue on the same front. It also slows the pace of world exchange, which mitigates the impact of flip-flopping merc populations. It concentrates populations on each front, increasing pops per front without reducing fronts.

ding ding ding

Exactly what I mean by PGI controlling the map a bit better to prevent having an IS map that looks like it currently does.

Add in the prevention of allowing a player to switch sides in the middle of a war and all of those problems are nearly completely resolved quickly and easily.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Sandpit, on 13 January 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

makes me wonder if they aren't really hoping for solos to be separated so THEY have an easier time to farm new players and such because I know for a fact that none of the units (big or small) on our Marik site do this.

I know I make more dropping solo. A lot more. If there are 4 or more QQ members on, I'm not breaking 3000 damage and getting 15 kills. I'm likely to sit around 2400 and 10 kills. That's about a 300,000 CBill difference.

I already solo CW a lot. That's how I can make 50mil in a weekend.

Splitting queues just means I get to be a Great White in a sea full of seals with no chance of being jumped by a pod of Orcas.

MischiefSC, on 13 January 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

There is no impetus to fight other units. All the impetus is to attack however. Thus they avoid each other.

A bounty system would be good.

Also just make 1 queue, not 2, for each border. You fight over 1 world per cycle. The first world is picked at random. After that it's back and forth - attacker wins, next round they are defender. They win again, new world on defenders side opens up. Defender wins they become attacker for next cycle.

That way everyone is in the same queue on the same front. It also slows the pace of world exchange, which mitigates the impact of flip-flopping merc populations. It concentrates populations on each front, increasing pops per front without reducing fronts.

I've been pushing that singular planet idea for a while. It'd be nice that way groups can be frontloaded and increase the likelihood of running into each other, that way PUGs can fight have a higher chance of fighting other PUGs.

[gloowa]

Khereg, on 13 January 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Anime raises a point here, but there's a non-sinister explanation

Never forget what i call the Internet-Warrior's-Hanlon's-Razor:
Never attrubute to coincidence or stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice.

Edited by gloowa, 13 January 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[Vxheous]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 13 January 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

I know I make more dropping solo. A lot more. If there are 4 or more QQ members on, I'm not breaking 3000 damage and getting 15 kills. I'm likely to sit around 2400 and 10 kills. That's about a 300,000 CBill difference.

I already solo CW a lot. That's how I can make 50mil in a weekend.

Splitting queues just means I get to be a Great White in a sea full of seals with no chance of being jumped by a pod of Orcas.

Exactly this. Bad Solo players seem to think that a solo queue will be the fix to all their problems, but this just means that each game will just end up with 2-3 good players that will put on their backpacks and carry the 9-10 bads on the team. Good players will all gravitate to mid/long range builds/mechs that maximize damage and minimize exposure, using the bads as a meat shield. Instead of having a mode for teamwork, you end up with a mode that caters to selfish play.

[Sandpit]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 13 January 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Splitting queues just means I get to be a Great White in a sea full of seals with no chance of being jumped by a pod of Orcas.

Vxheous Kerensky, on 13 January 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Exactly this. Bad Solo players seem to think that a solo queue will be the fix to all their problems, .

It's more of those seal clubbers spreading their propaganda about "evil premades" when it's them that want the queues split for the exact example Vxh just laid out.

It would make it easier for them to farm new players and club seals. Don't be fooled by the hype. most of the units and "evil premades" in CW especially want to do nothing BUT help new players because that's one of our best recruiting tools.

Plain and simple.

Beware those who push for an idea that's been factually proven not to do anything they're claiming it will. Look to those coming up with new ideas on how to ACTUALLY help new players and solos be more involved in CW.

I've yet to hear from one single new player or "seal" in regards to this. The only ones I see pushing for this are old vets that as far from new as you can get. Which leads me to wonder, who are they really trying to help? Separate queues won't help them. They'll be "stuck" with more "scrubs" (I can paste the quotes specifically calling them that by some of those "we're here to help" players is need be) on their team that they are "forced" to carry

or

They're stuck in a queue with nobody else to help fill it out so now they can club seals to their heart's content.

Which one of those scenarios actually improves anything EXCEPT those wanting to club seals.

Want to get real down and dirty with it? Want to discuss who's really trying to come up with ideas to help and fix issues?

It sure as H3LL isn't the players advocating for separate queues. If that solved anything then the PUB queues would be hunky dory and they're not.

Plain and simple. We don't need to "try it"

It's already bene tried
tested
used and abused

It didn't fix the pub queue, it won't fix issues with CW queue.

[Tuefel Hunden]

How can anyone with half a brain claim that groups avoid each other? One has no idea who they are dropping against. It could be a group or it could be puggies. If we find a fight with another group, we always que right back up for another fight. That is win or lose, boys and girls. We aren't looking for easy wins, we are looking for good fights. Often we change planets just to try and find a group. Who the heck wants to play pugs? They suck.

All this drivel about the pug issue. Simple solution, make CW group play only.

[Jaster Me Reel]

I drop with an 8-12 man premade almost every night. I do the occasional solo so I can hit my 3K damage but in our groups we que up where ever there are groups currently. Every once in awhile we will get the call to arms to attack a certain planet to take control but we really don't care about that as much as getting as many fights in as possible. I think the whole "units avoid one another" is a hollow conspiracy theory. Much like most opinions made up by people not in a unit or even by people not in "said unit".

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Sandpit, on 13 January 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

snip

I typically live off Hanlon's Razor, and that most of the people pushing real f*ckwad ideas are both stupid and selfish.

Of course it's also hard to call some of them stupid because stupid implies that they should know better.

[Wildstreak]

Well, I am convinced they are not really trying too hard if at all to avoid other units.

If they wanted farming, all the comp units would have to do is join Liao or Davion, lotta LRMs used down there by both, not sure about Marik though I have heard things.

[Sandpit]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 13 January 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

I typically live off Hanlon's Razor, and that most of the people pushing real f*ckwad ideas are both stupid and selfish.

Of course it's also hard to call some of them stupid because stupid implies that they should know better.

That's why I just use the word ignorant most times. It gives them the benefit of the doubt but I agree with you unfortunately.

They work under the guise of "imrpoving MWO, CW, NPE, etc." when all they really want is to make it easier for THEM to continue clubbing seals because any time they run into a team that's got a few vets on the other side they get rolled up because it's not a bunch of noobs running in circles.

[Maxwell Albritten]

MischiefSC, on 13 January 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Also just make 1 queue, not 2, for each border. You fight over 1 world per cycle. The first world is picked at random. After that it's back and forth - attacker wins, next round they are defender. They win again, new world on defenders side opens up. Defender wins they become attacker for next cycle.

That way everyone is in the same queue on the same front. It also slows the pace of world exchange, which mitigates the impact of flip-flopping merc populations. It concentrates populations on each front, increasing pops per front without reducing fronts.

I have supported a similar idea. Funnel people onto fewer worlds = moar fights. The idea of momentum being important also adds a sense of how the campaign is actually going. The one issue may be the relative inactivity during oceanic TZ. It maybe that it wouldn't be a problem once this idea is implemented, but if not then it could forces the attack/defend cycle into a hard pattern.

[Sandpit]

Maxwell Albritten, on 13 January 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

I have supported a similar idea. Funnel people onto fewer worlds = moar fights. The idea of momentum being important also adds a sense of how the campaign is actually going. The one issue may be the relative inactivity during oceanic TZ. It maybe that it wouldn't be a problem once this idea is implemented, but if not then it could forces the attack/defend cycle into a hard pattern.

then for the love of all that's MWO
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

participate in the threads talking about exactly that!

[Korrner]

This question goes into a very grey area of CW. Do they actively try to dodge each other ? I don't think so. But the key word in your sentence is "actively".

I personally play in a IS exclusive unit, when we attack a planet we **very** rarely see a full 12 man on defense ... maybe that's just the randomness of CW that make me experience seeing A LOT more 12 "big unit 12 man boogeyman" when defending IS planets and A LOT more PUG groups when attacking a planet.

Now to me it seems like a fact that we are more likely to see a 12 man attacking a planet than defending it. Why is that ? Maybe they do not **actively** dodge each other, but maybe they have developed drop habits that maximize their chances ? Why wouldn't they ?

Before I finish I'll add one thing: I really don't mind losing to 12 men groups when I play CW. Our unit is not big enough yet to field a full 12 man, so we do have PUGs in our CW games. We have a lot of memorable games that we played against 12 man boogeyman, both wins and looses ... to me it's still fun no matter the results.

The "problem" that I see with big merc units such as MS is the power their number gives them. When such units decide to apply pressure, it's almost impossible to field enough players to effectively defend a planet. Not when there are 3-4 active groups continually dropping for each pug group trying to defend. It's not unfair and it doesn't piss me off but I really think that everyone would have a lot more fun (even big units members) when the fights are meaningful and when you can't be sure that you will win the planet.

I have a question for you: does -MS- ever worry about taking a planet or not when they are actively attacking it (if not, where's the fun in that) ? How many ghost drops do you get when this happens ?

Hoping I don't come across as complaining or bashing big units, I'm simply wondering.

[MischiefSC]

Maxwell Albritten, on 13 January 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

I have supported a similar idea. Funnel people onto fewer worlds = moar fights. The idea of momentum being important also adds a sense of how the campaign is actually going. The one issue may be the relative inactivity during oceanic TZ. It maybe that it wouldn't be a problem once this idea is implemented, but if not then it could forces the attack/defend cycle into a hard pattern.

Also as it requires consistent momentum to shift the map it reduces the overall impact of short lived merc contracts.

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 January 2016 - 03:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

Well, there is some brokeness in how CW pulls its players.

When Clans fight vs IS (or vice versa), you pull together "rainbow pugs"... that is random PUGs from ALL of the same type (Clan attacking IS will get you IS PUGs defending, the opposite is also true).

In this case, it is easier to see a queue fill PUG-wise as the opponent... arguably something you can see happening on a regular basis.

When there is an inter-faction fight (Clans vs Clans or IS vs IS), you pull against PUGs of the same faction. Depending on the population for the faction, this will pull a much smaller subset of players.

So, if Kurita decided to attack Davion... ONLY Davion aligned players/units can respond to that.


Just remember that the whole point of CW is to acquire planets... but less of an emphasis to retain them.. due to how the queues function. In order for a faction to gain ground, attacking planets is generally "more productive" (in other words, start the fighting, instead of preemptive defending vs nobody).


The only time other options are considered (like defending) it depends on how the queues are going... as avoiding overflowing queues (either attack or defense) is better than facing a ghost drop (which still inevitably happens).


The reality is that PUGs are more likely to show up in a Clan vs IS instance than a IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan instance... and due to natural imbalances in population (aka "wherever Mercstar goes" or something like that), it is very difficult to properly balance faction distribution when contracts aren't influencing/affecting population movement or "migration" for Mercs.

Note that there is actually no current incentive for solo players to attack planets... they can, but in many ways units/groups are usually more driven to do that for their faction (yet, there is no real "reward" for claiming planets either.. not yet) and that requires a lot more sustained attacks (having a group of PUGs to support a winning war effort is not really a good 50-50 proposition - not that having them fail at defense is any better). It's easier to collect players on the whole for a defensive effort (for other planets).. since they can plop down any sector they wish to defend (assuming, they know where the action is at).

Edited by Deathlike, 13 January 2016 - 03:24 PM.

[Khereg]

Korrner, on 13 January 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

This question goes into a very grey area of CW. Do they actively try to dodge each other ? I don't think so. But the key word in your sentence is "actively".

I could have used the word "intentionally" to mean the same thing: do units make an effort to avoid fighting each other? And yes, that distinction is intended. Units get accused of doing just this, and that's what I wanted to show - if units wind up missing each other in CW it's usually because of other reasons.

[habu86]

Korrner, on 13 January 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

I have a question for you: does -MS- ever worry about taking a planet or not when they are actively attacking it (if not, where's the fun in that) ? How many ghost drops do you get when this happens ?

Yes, MS does in fact try to take planets when attacking. The standing instructions are generally to secure our attack lanes against the opposing Operation Revival side (i.e. IS lanes if playing Clan, Clan lanes if playing IS) before going on defenses. As such, unless we're getting a lot of ghost drops, most MS groups will stay until the planet is secured to 100% and then go looking for any other fights that might be had (or stay right where we are if we continue to get good drops).

Now, if we do get ghost drops, folks might be willing to put up with a couple, amused by the accompanying shenanigans that ensue, but Drop Commanders will often change targets if the planet is over 50% and we can't get any more fights. As always, attacks are preferred early on, but if it looks like we might get an instadrop on defense, it's a good chance we'll go there.

Generally speaking, what happens is that we are very likely to run into organized units within the last couple of hours before ceasefire; basically whoever secures their attack lane first (assuming they care about taking planets) has the flexibility to shift to defense, and that's when the real fun starts.

Also, one other thing to ponder for those who complain that planets don't matter in their argument that the big units stay on attack to avoid each other. Planets might not matter now, but they might in phase 3 or 4, or whenever, and when they do, the knowledge of how to take one, and the ability to do so, will as well.

In the meantime, the number of planets your unit controls is just another achievement in a fun way to pass the time and there for folks to rejoice in or ignore depending on their mood. It is, after all, just a video game.

Edited by habu86, 13 January 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 13 January 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

AW0L queues up where we can get insta-games, which usually results in us planet bouncing all night (we are just looking for games, do not really care about trying to tag a planet at this point). Lately we have been running 1 12 man, and a second group of 4-8 size, and consolidate into a single 12 man as we get later into the evening.

I've been teamed up with this player and his team as a PUG. They do good at welcoming solos and integrating them into the team for the drop. Class act, IMO. And didn't see any hint of them avoiding big fights or ruthlessly clubbing the seals. Good drops. Good people.