121 replies to this topic

[Khereg]

Korrner, on 13 January 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

I have a question for you: does -MS- ever worry about taking a planet or not when they are actively attacking it (if not, where's the fun in that) ? How many ghost drops do you get when this happens ?

Hoping I don't come across as complaining or bashing big units, I'm simply wondering.

No worries - happy to share.

As for your question, yes, we are in CW to take planets and hang our tag on them (among other reasons). It's just bragging rights, but it does show the accomplishment.

In fact, when we're hired by someone in a faction, our terms usually indicate payment for accomplishing certain goals, like capturing X number of planets in Y number of days. When that happens, the contract terms dictate where we drop above all other considerations. We haven't had a paying contract in a while, though, so I didn't mention that incentive in my OP.

Edited to add: Forgot the ghost drop part... We almost never get ghost drops. If we launch an attack, people always seem to show up to defend (another advantage of attacking over defending, BTW). If we do get a ghost drop, we might go one more round to see if it happens again. If we get two in a row, we almost always move to another planet.

Edited by Khereg, 14 January 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Javin]

Drop against Davion and you will find HHoD. Unless Davion high command says do not drop against a faction, we also attack almost everywhere.

[Havyek]

Someone else said it already, but I'll reiterate.

The notion that groups "farm PUGs for c-bills" is bull.
On average, I make 500-700k c-bills with 1500-2k damage with other MS players (varies a bit depending on how many veterans or newbies are in the group at the time).
If I'm trying to make money, I solo. I consistently make 800-1.2mil c-bills and 2200-3k damage.

Being unsociable, not as skilled, and unwilling to learn/group up/improve your game doesn't make groups bad and evil.

[Zfailboat]

See Khereg, you are doing it wrong.

You are trying explain what MS does, when you should have put more effort into explaining the system PGI built.

1. You can not defend, unless someone attacks. Solo players 95% of the time follow the curve, they don't lead it. Until an organised team starts an attack, solo players will not follow. So someone has to start attacking first - and its almost always going to be a premade team of varying size.

2. When you have 1 faction able to attack, but either 4 (for clans) or 6 for IS able to defend, The attackers will AWAYS have the ability to be better co-ordinated. Such as everyone gathering on house team speak servers.

3. The style of the call to arms encourages people to solo drop when it pops up.

To fix this is not the job of units it is the job of PGI. There is many ways they can do this. a few of them are.

1. Allow factions to buddy up. EG Davion and Kurita, Liao and FRR, Marik and Steiner, Jade Falcon and Wolf, Ghost bear and Smoke Jag. This condenses player number and allows for larger co-ordination.

2. Create some unique 2 week long events. Such as Kurita Davion and Smoke jag VS Liao FRR, Wolf and Ghost bear, vs Marrik,Steiner and Jade falcon. This creates opportunities for friends on different sides to group up for fun events + allows friendships to form between loyalist clan and IS sides - which will make people want to shoot people they were friends with during normal play.

3. Increase rewards dynamically as planets evolve. Give merc attackers a 20% cbill boost and loyalists a 15% cbill and 10% LP boost for attacking a planet under 25%. Do the same for defenders when a planet gets over 75% lost. This encourages units to defend planes when they are about to drop, and attack planets when they are fresh. whilst leaving the middle ground more for solo players who just follow the call to arms click bait regardless.

[Xavier]

AnimeFreak40K, on 13 January 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

I was not trying to sound sinister, if I was, I do apologize.

I was simply stating facts as I see them, and the point you quoted really should be taken in context of the points that preceded it, specifically about the design structure of Faction Warfare as it stands right now.

Faction Warfare favors the attacker with regard to match times, rewards, etc. in its present state. I do not feel that MercStar (or any unit, large or small, competitive or casual for that matter) should be faulted when it comes to trying to get fast matches, make C-Bills/LP as quickly as possible or make the most out of a system by staying on the attack (since that is what Faction Warfare seems to favor at the moment).

That being said, I do stand by my statement of the desire to face against units however. I understand what is wanted (strong opponents and short wait-times), but sometimes you have to decide which is more important.

If you really want to face off against units and get strong opposition, spend some time defending; wait times be dammed. If you want to focus on earning money and quick matches then don't complain about the lack strong opponents.

And the way I see it, as long as it remains clear to me that units prefer chasing the money and/or quick matches, they don't get to use the "but we want strong opponents" argument with me.

I am not sure what matches you drop in but I average between 900,000 and 1.1mil cbills per 12 man CW match that I drop not including the 300k victory bonus. Our drops generally las about 18-22 minutes for a full 48 player kill victory. I cannot make 1.2-1.4million cbills in solo queue in the same time frame.

I figured out I almost double my cbill earning potential playing CW in 12 mans because we have no wait times.

Zfailboat, on 13 January 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

See Khereg, you are doing it wrong.

You are trying explain what MS does, when you should have put more effort into explaining the system PGI built.

1. You can not defend, unless someone attacks. Solo players 95% of the time follow the curve, they don't lead it. Until an organised team starts an attack, solo players will not follow. So someone has to start attacking first - and its almost always going to be a premade team of varying size.

2. When you have 1 faction able to attack, but either 4 (for clans) or 6 for IS able to defend, The attackers will AWAYS have the ability to be better co-ordinated. Such as everyone gathering on house team speak servers.

3. The style of the call to arms encourages people to solo drop when it pops up.

To fix this is not the job of units it is the job of PGI. There is many ways they can do this. a few of them are.

1. Allow factions to buddy up. EG Davion and Kurita, Liao and FRR, Marik and Steiner, Jade Falcon and Wolf, Ghost bear and Smoke Jag. This condenses player number and allows for larger co-ordination.

2. Create some unique 2 week long events. Such as Kurita Davion and Smoke jag VS Liao FRR, Wolf and Ghost bear, vs Marrik,Steiner and Jade falcon. This creates opportunities for friends on different sides to group up for fun events + allows friendships to form between loyalist clan and IS sides - which will make people want to shoot people they were friends with during normal play.

3. Increase rewards dynamically as planets evolve. Give merc attackers a 20% cbill boost and loyalists a 15% cbill and 10% LP boost for attacking a planet under 25%. Do the same for defenders when a planet gets over 75% lost. This encourages units to defend planes when they are about to drop, and attack planets when they are fresh. whilst leaving the middle ground more for solo players who just follow the call to arms click bait regardless.

I actually think the answer is simpler than even what you have said....I think each border should just be a single attack defend queue. Whoever wins that queue for that attack/defend cycle wins a planet from their opponent. This way 12 mans would all be in the same queue

[sdsnowbum]

Khereg, on 13 January 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Anime raises a point here, but there's a non-sinister explanation:

Taking an attack almost always results in faster drops, because the call to arms goes out to defend and people show up. Yes, there's a good chance they'll be pugs, but our only concern is getting fights faster and not sitting around wasting time. We don't care who shows up to defend - it isn't part of the discussion.

Conversely, taking defense tickets just plain means a longer wait to get match. When a call to arms goes out, defenders rush into the queue. When I see the planet options for defense, they almost always look something like 24/38, 37/52, or similar. There's already more defenders waiting for more attackers to show up, which means we're going to be sitting around waiting, which we don't want to do.

Blame the mechanics of the mode, but in terms of our decision making about where to drop, the order of priority is, 1. Do we have instructions to go somewhere specific?, if not or if the planet we're instructed to go to is secure, then 2. Where can we get a fight the fastest?

That's really it. Who our oppoents are likely to be almost never even gets brought up.




We do the same. When we find a group, we stay with them until one of us leaves/disbands or cease fire hits.

If there is a planet under active attack does defending it really take that long to get a match?

With a group I thought you skip to the head of the queue ahead of solos, and get the next drop on that planet.

[habu86]

Azzgaroth, on 13 January 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

We, Death Watch, do exacly like NS (GG yesterday guys) if we face good team we keep droping to figth as much possible with other good team. Seal clubing get boring....

Good pair of drops against you guys on Pinnacle just now. I have to get sleep, but keep up the GGs

[pwnface]

sdsnowbum, on 13 January 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

If there is a planet under active attack does defending it really take that long to get a match?

With a group I thought you skip to the head of the queue ahead of solos, and get the next drop on that planet.

This is not quite accurate. If there are groups of 12 already in countdown you still end up behind them. You only jump ahead of players that haven't quite formed 12 yet. If a planet is at 48 attackers 50 defenders you won't get an instant drop. If a planet is at 60 attackers 58 defenders, you will get an instant drop. People just want to get into matches quickly, groups don't really care that much about attack or defend.

[Void Angel]

sycocys, on 13 January 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

I have an opinion that flies in the face of facts, so I won't bother to read the OP or any of the unit reps posting - they're all bullies who just want to grind pugs, but they're just saying they're not because they're ashamed to admit it. But I see through them! Look at me! I'm so clever, and edgy, and cool - look at me!

Fixed that for you.

[Void Angel]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 13 January 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

AW0L queues up where we can get insta-games, which usually results in us planet bouncing all night (we are just looking for games, do not really care about trying to tag a planet at this point). Lately we have been running 1 12 man, and a second group of 4-8 size, and consolidate into a single 12 man as we get later into the evening.

Everybody is looking for games! Who has time to magically pick and choose who they fight? It's not like you can tell who the numbers on the attack/defend counters actually are. The whole "mean units farm poor innocent widdle PuGs" thing is an urban legend... The reasonable explanation to why you run into units as a PuG in CW is because there are a lot of units playing CW! Here, conspiracy theorists, this is Occam's Razor; try not to cut yourselves - or do...

[Jack Booted Thug]

Whatever planet has the fastest match.

[NextGame]

Community warfare isn't even a primary concern for many units due to how shallow it is at present, I'd be very surprised on that basis if units were somehow putting any sort of effort into "avoiding" each other.

[LordNothing]

i think that very few groups actively do this. much of the problem is systemic however, the game just ends up putting the best against the worst. both issues seem to really mess up the image of cw, especially the uptake of new players.

[nagdamnit]

Javin, on 13 January 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Drop against Davion and you will find HHoD. Unless Davion high command says do not drop against a faction, we also attack almost everywhere.

But they wont will they? HHoD are very active and I enjoy dropping with them regularly. But Davion high command always has us/you attacking other planets. We let our PUGS "defend" our planets while we go off turret bashing and dry-dropping. All the while trying to put tags on a new planet while losing the tags off an old one (yet planets mean nothing in CW).

Meanwhile in "Liao land", TCAF are sent to attack one of the Davion planets also allowing their PUGs to defend their planets.

Surely its in everyone's interest for TCAF and HHoD to play each other? Both sides have teams active pretty much every night, but it rarely happens. Why is that?

I'm pretty sure the same kind of nonsense occurs across multiple fronts and multiple units. People from whichever "high command" (seriously lads?) dictate that dry drops are more preferable to actually playing the game for the 50+ active players in CW on any given night..................... and the players go off and just accept the dry-drops? I've done it myself.

Something is broken when that becomes the standard approach to CW. Blaming PGI is a bit lazy.

Edited by nagdamnit, 14 January 2016 - 03:53 AM.

[El Bandito]

What's really funny is that attacking is actually easier to pull off than defending (with the exception of Boreal), and usually pugs do defensive drops. So when big units focus on the attack, they are actually taking the least challenging route.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 January 2016 - 03:56 AM.

[iLLcapitan]

El Bandito, on 14 January 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

What's really funny is that attacking is actually easier to pull off than defending, and usually pugs do defensive drops (with the exception of Boreal). So when big units focus on the attack, they are actually taking the least challenging route.

True, but most of times its simply the fastest way to get a match. Because (esp on IS side I feel so far) all the defense lanes are overstacked.

[EGG]

I was thinking about this, and conceivably you could just grab a set of borders and artificially designate this as a unit drop area. Something like Kurita/Smoke-Jag or Steiner/Wolf. This would allow most of the IS/Clan fights to happen over the Kurita/SJ border, with the occasional pivot (monthly, maybe fortnightly) to Kurita/FRR (or Davion) for IS-IS fights or SJ/CGB for Clan-Clan fights.

In the past, particularly CW1, most of us played the game we were given and tried to fight out the 3050 invasion complete with alliances, border raids, politicking etc, and we've given that a shot twice over now with a rather feature-incomplete structure. Perhaps for CW3 there's some inclination to throw that aside and just setup an area where better fights can be found.

The positives to this:

• New players would either get told to avoid this border or would find out the hard way
  
• It might be easier for some of the medium sized units to fill out a competent 12-man via the conglomeration of units
  
• Unit on unit fights
  
• Less punctuality/preparation required compared to the various leagues

Downsides:

• It would take some organizing, for some units to make the initial move and for someone to keep track of the numbers to ensure the rough count on each side stayed the same
  
• Units would need to co-ordinate contract renewals to border switches.
  
• General apathy
  
• No more mechbay grand tour. Although I guess you could turn it into a faction border grand tour for the same effect.
  
• Notions of faction loyalty would have to go out the window.
  
• Some units would stay wherever they were because "reasons".
  
• KCom might not own any IS mechs
  
• Some new players might still Admiral Ackbar in via the Call to Arms, hopefully they wouldn't have much impact if most units were balling up into 12-mans though.

I wouldn't see or suggest this as a long-term solution. This is in more in line with the RHoD CB sync-dropping tournament, where it was simply making the best of the limited framework we'd been given until such time as PGI deliver something else. Ideally CW could do with either a lot more players or a slightly different framework.

Edited by EGG, 14 January 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[Khereg]

sdsnowbum, on 13 January 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

If there is a planet under active attack does defending it really take that long to get a match?

With a group I thought you skip to the head of the queue ahead of solos, and get the next drop on that planet.

But that's not what we see. Look at the numbers I posted. Once a planet comes under attack, it's very, and I mean very, common for the defenders to quickly outnumber the attackers. Not by just a few, either. Many times there's already full groups waiting to drop.

Also, we aren't always in 12-man's. We frequently are running groups of 6+ which means we don't just instantly jump to the front of the line.

But you're right, there are times when we could take more defense tickets. However, we often do have instructions (suggestions?) to attack a specific planet and stay with it until it's secure.

[Khereg]

Zfailboat, on 13 January 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

See Khereg, you are doing it wrong.

You are trying explain what MS does, when you should have put more effort into explaining the system PGI built.


(a bunch of stuff I generally agree with)

Believe me, I know. But as much as we've had threads discussing everything you said, units STILL get called out for being bad actors in CW. I just wanted a bunch of the big and/or skilled units to step in and say what I always knew to be true and I thought shedding a little light on the way -MS- functions in real time would help alleviate some of the boogeyman status we've earned.

Some people will never believe our motives even if 10 different units step up and say the same thing (which they've pretty much done right here in this thread). But hopefully this discussion shows reasonable observers that those people are really just paranoid and making up a narrative that fits that paranoia.

Edited by Khereg, 14 January 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[Sandpit]

TheRAbbi, on 13 January 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

I've been teamed up with this player and his team as a PUG. They do good at welcoming solos and integrating them into the team for the drop. Class act, IMO. And didn't see any hint of them avoiding big fights or ruthlessly clubbing the seals. Good drops. Good people.

That kind of attitude and self-policing in faction chat and the community itself are going to go miles beyond anything PGi CAN do to help new players and such.

The game and curiosity bring them into MWO. The community is what keeps them here many times. Those referring to other players as "scrubs" and trying to portray them as drooling masses are what hurt the community.
Not premades
Not queues
Not PUGs
Not new players

It's the tryhards that go out of their way to make another feel inferior simply because they're better at a video game. Report them, mute them, block them. As their "crowd" and "audience" dwindles they'll get the picture or lead a very lonely MWO life.