20 replies to this topic

[William Pryde]

Question for all of you pros out there - I love my Dire Wolves and constantly run them in CW. I manage between 400-600 damage with the Wolf (I know that's lower, still upping my game) and typically end each game with between 1200-1500 damage (working on getting up to a consistant 2k per game).

I just wanted to ask who else uses Dire Wolves in CW? I know they're considered a poor choice, I'm just curious if I'm the only one.

[Lolo van Trollinger]

the main problem with DWF / AC20-Urbie in CW is they are semi static machines.
as much as movement is overrated, it binds people to watch your behind or you waste a mech.
Needs to drop in wave 1 to arrive in wave 2 so bring a speedboat to reinforce in later waves.
or take a fast mech as a taxi. e.g. ride a warhawk / KGC.

also, tactical mobility is an issue.
and did i mention speed ?


if you absolutely need to drop it at least make sure you level up to the speed freak boost and pack climb acceleration and reduced leg loss speed.


EDIT stuff will get wicked once the annihilator becomes available - 100 tons with a 200 engine (24,3 kph)

Edited by Lolo van Trollinger, 14 January 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[old man odin]

I've run them pretty regularly in CW for the last few weeks.

They're not as bad as people make out. In fact a Dire Wolf can be the strongest choice on a lot of maps. The problem is they don't work on every map and mode. Generally you want to save them for defences and always use them on your first wave. Just farming pugs in one isn't preferable as you tend to push them around the map, but against proper teams they're fantastic.

[pwnface]

If you are going to bring a DWF in CW always bring it first wave.

I've been running one pretty regularly with lots of UAC10/UAC5 action, can often squeeze out 1500 damage before running out of ammo.

[Brissan]

Too bad it's our only viable Assault Mech for pushing and front lining...

[Helsbane]

I bring mine for defense and hold territory drops. Nothing says 'KEEP OUT' like a stream of AC rounds that shreds the first, second, and third guy around a corner or as they crest. I typically don't have far to go to get to a good, useful location where I can stay in cover. If I play smart (been known to happen on occasion), I get between 700 and 1200 dmg with it. I avoid bringing the 'Whale on any form of attack simply due to their limited speed and twist. Too much travel and exposure time to get that thing into the enemy territory for it to still be effective for any length of time.

[Hydrocarbon]

It's not bad on defense, but on attack it's a POOR choice. Either your team waits for you (burning game time) or they plow ahead down 1 man. Even worse is when some n00b brings it for his last mech - it simply wastes tonnage.

Clans make better pokers right now, but the Dire is a crawling turret. If you try to 1v1 an equally skilled IS assault, you will almost always be waiting in your drop ship while he picks his next target. I'd like to think I know more than most CW players, as I've played both sides since CW came out.

[Jonathan Paine]

Never walk alone in a Dire. Bring a few Whale friends, hope that someone brings ECM (two Dires + two Artic Cheaters, mmmm) and enjoy blowing up anyone who gets in the way.

[StonedVet]

Drop the dire and roll with ebj's and timbers. It's comical watching people try to sit static and think sniping is the way to go. Makes for easy money. (For me that is) 81 kph or faster ftw.

Edited by Lowridah, 15 January 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Aiden Skye]

I only drop in my direwolves on Defense. Usually use it as a heavy turret near omega. It's too danm slow and has too limited twist to be caught in a position without cover, or to be in a situation where the team decides to retreat from the enemy and leave you alone. (Which happens a lot pugging in CW) usually end up with around 1500 damage by the time I'm out of ammo.

Direwolves on attack? 100 tons of wasted space that's maybe only good on emerald taiga since it's a smaller more brawly map. Other than that too much time is wasted waiting on them to get into position only for them to get focused down first.

[KinLuu]

Brissan, on 15 January 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Too bad it's our only viable Assault Mech for pushing and front lining...

IMHO the EXE is a better pusher - the DWF is too slow and far too vulnerable.

[ackstorm]

Very difficult to use simply because of the mobility. A DW has serious problems getting out of LRMS and into cover.

I have a 4-LPL DWF-S I have been using in CW that seems to do okay. The jump jets help avoid getting stuck on death-pebbles and help with turning. BAP and a couple SSRM's to assist with cooldown/fast movers.

I would consider it a bad idea to load a DWF up with exclusively one range of weapon only - it needs all that weapon space to make up for its lack of mobility. It works real well with heat-neutral autocannons paired with lasers, allowing for constant fire even when cooling.

[Ace Selin]

W A R K H A N, on 18 January 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

Thanks for waiting for my Dire when weve played together ... ;-P

pwnface, on 14 January 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

If you are going to bring a DWF in CW always bring it first wave.

I've been running one pretty regularly with lots of UAC10/UAC5 action, can often squeeze out 1500 damage before running out of ammo.

Pretty much this. On defense its fine to bring on most maps, on attack be selective especially if youre PUGGING. Just remember to position well. If youre caught out youre slow to move and will get focused and this is especially true if youre playing against good teams.

Hydrocarbon, on 15 January 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

It's not bad on defense, but on attack it's a POOR choice. Either your team waits for you (burning game time) or they plow ahead down 1 man.

Had a very memorable game attacking on Grim Portico; PUGGING, where my team went Beta gate before i could get there. I could have tried to catch up, got caught in the crossfire and died horribly, but instead i waited inside the gates with my Dire thinking the enemy team wouldn't look my way but would instead drop and chase my comrades after the initial trades, as my team pushed further for better sight lines and cover. Which is exactly what happened and i then moved my Dire to their rear and got 5 near instant rear kills before the enemy PUGS even realized what happened. If you know your disadvantages you can negate them to some degree.

Edited by Ace Selin, 18 January 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[-=Heloc=-]

I'd start with having my own tools to evaluate my performance in a more objective way as it's tough to say that bringing a DWF to CW is a good or bad idea in general. It's a bit easier to figure out if any one individual should pilot one.

Right now, the resource you have with a hard limit is drop-deck tonnage. That is the thing with scarcity so that is the resource that limits you. Everything is then about damage/match score/performance per ton. Understand that numbers like match score and damage are proxies for "how much I contributed to the team's performance" and are, by their nature, imperfect. That said, I think damage is a pretty good one in most cases.

So, the way to measure is to figure out what portion of your deck is being taken up by a given 'mech (in this case 100/260 or about 38.5%) and then compare that to the damage you're getting out of the 'mech. By your numbers, you're getting an average of 500 damage per match out of an average total of 1350 or 37%. So, it's pretty slim but your DWF isn't pulling it's weight.

That doesn't mean that you should pull it from your deck just yet because we can't really say why it's not pulling it's weight. Maybe you only drop it first and get to the action late. Maybe it does just fine with attacks because you get time to catch up while the team opens the gate but you get left behind on counter/hold territory. Maybe you usually drop it last (generally a terrible idea, your best stuff should drop 1st or 2nd) so just moving it around in the line-up will make it improve. It could be that you have a lot of dakka on the DWF but laser vomit builds on everything else. Ballistics tend to do less damage to kill a 'mech so your average damage can go down even though your actual performance is basically the same. LRMs spread so much that they have the opposite effect. I'll take 1200 damage from dakka 'mechs over 1800 worth of LRM boat damage any day.

So, if you try different builds, dropping in different orders, changing tactics, and every other variable that you can think of and you still aren't getting the performance that you should, THEN you should drop that 'mech from your deck.

Of course, the other big stinger here is that your other 'mechs might be pulling way MORE of their weight than your DWF will on it's best day. Even if you're getting 40% of your total damage from the DWF, if you're finding that another 50% is coming from say a TBR, we're talking about 50% of your damage coming from 29% of your drop-deck tonnage. If that were the case, the relative performance of the TBR trumps the DWF and I'd drop it in favor of more TBRs.

Numbers aren't the only thing to pay attention to but it definitely gives you some good objective tools to really evaluate your 'mechs.

A big part of the non-numbers component is that one of the clan's biggest strengths is that nearly all of their 'mechs run the same range of speeds (usually around the 90-110 KPH mark) and they tend to be faster than the IS. So it's a lot easier for a team of clan heavies to all stay together AND stay fast and mobile. The DWF can do none of that. I suspect that the effect would be should itself in a lower match score/damage total, but it should be pretty obvious when it's happening now that you can look for it.

I think that bringing a DWF to CW is a bad idea for most players, most of the time. Personally, I can't stand to pilot anything with a top speed under 65Kph so I don't even own one. But my goal here isn't to convince you not to bring one to CW, it's to give you the tools to convince yourself. It's not even that I think the DWF is bad in CW, just that there are many other 'mechs that will not only be more effective but will take up less tonnage besides. And, by putting some numbers to the decision, you have a good way to evaluate the contributions of any 'mech that you want to put in your drop-deck.

[JaidenHaze]

Dire Wolfs arent worth it. The main problem isnt, that the Dire Wolf is bad, its because of the usage of weight as the limiting factor in CW. Even with 340 tons, i wouldnt run 3 Dires.

In the Battletech Tabletop, you have roughly the same BattleValue on a Timber and a Dire. The reason? Because they are fairly balances against each other. While the Dire has more Firepower and Armor, the Timber is more nimble and agile. If you have a good commander, both can be used very effectivly. But without BV, the Dire simply isnt worth the 33% higher weight if you have the Timber as a base.

So - right now, use 3x Timber or 2x Timber and 1x Orion IIC with a 35 ton mech like the Cheetah or Jenner IIC. Way more effective then any double Dire double Light strategy.

[sycocys]

Better on defense, always a first wave mech. That's been said.

Past that I wouldn't run it with anything but dakka, its not very mobile so being a front load (as much as clan ac is) low heat machine that can constantly put out dps until it dies is it's best purpose.

Been toying with my dire build for CW - 4 Uac5, Uac10 and 3 tons of ammo per cannon. 12.4 DPS without double taps, with them its ac60 as you breach the gate, so it should make for a nice turret.

[Widowmaker1981]

sycocys, on 21 January 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Better on defense, always a first wave mech. That's been said.

Past that I wouldn't run it with anything but dakka, its not very mobile so being a front load (as much as clan ac is) low heat machine that can constantly put out dps until it dies is it's best purpose.

Been toying with my dire build for CW - 4 Uac5, Uac10 and 3 tons of ammo per cannon. 12.4 DPS without double taps, with them its ac60 as you breach the gate, so it should make for a nice turret.

Dakka is my favourite style of Dire, and i played around with a lot of builds before coming up with this build - i think its the best dakka build due to ghost heat limits being at 3 UAC5 and 2 UAC10, so it has zero ghost heat and maximum dakka.. enough ammo for 1850 dmg should be ok

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 21 January 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

A love / hate relationship, DWF is a monster in the right hands, a match loser in the wrong hands.
ATTAKHAN666

[B0oN]

DWF pros :
- monstruous loadouts

DWF cons :
- very slow movement speed
- very slow turning
- low slung weapons

Comparing this mech to CW-suitable builds on WHK, EXE, GAR tells me I have multiple options for multiple situations in which a DWF almost every time falls out of the roster because of lacking movement ability .
Fielding 12 DWF´s on defenses on the other hand can be very effective ... but try find 12 competetent DWF pilots first and then one still needs a defense AND a map where you can bring them without hard headaches ^^

2€-cents

[Bjorn Coston]

Not bad for defense I suppose, although I never use them personally.

I'm not for Dire Wolves being used to stop-gap avenues of approach though. If you're going to have 1-2 players bring Dire Wolves into a CW defense drop, the priority should be to keep them in the fight as long as possible and utilize their massive damage output, not put them up front to tank as I see the majority of teams do. They'll melt just as fast if not faster since more often than not the enemy isn't stupid and immediately recognize a Dire Wolf as an immediate and viable threat. And with the slow torso twisting of the Dire Wolf combined with the IS laser meta, they won't last long if they are put up front.

As for Dire Wolves (and assaults in general) for attacks, I don't even bother. Strategy favors the offense and any offense dragging a couple of assaults with them is beholden to those two lumbering behemoths and is not an effective and maneuverable offense at all.

Edited by Bjorn Bekker, 03 February 2016 - 11:06 AM.