89 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Yosharian, on 16 January 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Please let me beat the **** out of uncoordinated PuGers with my uber pro unit group... please???

Zolaz, on 16 January 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

PGI has run most of the big units off from the game. PGI has made a minimally viable product (in CW)

FTFY.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Communication and coordination are skills. Just like aiming, learning to position on the map, learning how to build a good mech, throwing a ball or driving a car. They take effort and energy to develop and apply.

They are not hax. They are not exploits. It's not 'cheating' to communicate and coordinate with other people better than the other team. They are the fundamental tools that separate a good team from a bad one; unit tags are irrelevant. People who are willing and able to communicate and coordinate tend to join units, hence unit players tend to make and participate in teams that beat people who are not good at communicating and coordinating.

I get the need to have a pug queue with a matchmaker. I support it, cheered for it, have fought to maintain it apart from a group queue, I'm all for it. However CW is about larger conflicts; factions vs factions. It strongly rewards those skills - communication and coordination.

Attempting to punish people for doing that well isn't just stupid, it's counter-intuitive. Splitting queues is just introducing a 2-tiered matchmaker. People who can communicate and coordinate are on one side (unit queue) and people who are not good at it are on the other (solo queue). That is split because people with those skills (communication and coordination) tend to destroy those who can not.

That's why sometimes, seemingly magically, a pug team or mixed team beats a 12man. Because that 'pug' team was full of people who communicated and coordinated. That's it. Having the same tag provides no magic super-powers, no special wall hacks or aimbots. Joining a unit however tends to (not always) help you develop communication and coordination skills, the same way using direct fire weapons helps you hone aiming and targeting skills. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that units have at their disposal to win a match that a pug team doesn't. It's not about tech or builds or even the mouse and video card you use, even the video settings.

I also get that there's a desire to split people who are not as good from people who are good. Games between good players and bad players are one-sided and the bad players don't have fun in matches where they lose consistently, especially if they are unwilling or unable to improve those skills (communication and coordination) that the other team used to beat them.

This isn't about unit tags though. The only reason it feels like units whumping on pugs is because people who communicate and coordinate tend to join units. It's not the joining units though or the unit tag or membership that makes them win against people who play solo.

It's that communication and coordination are valuable and powerful skills in a team v team game. If anyone chooses not to hone their skills at coordination and communication they will absolutely and universally lose to those who do.

That's not a failure in game design it's a failure in how someone plays. The money of a bad player spends the same as a good players money and to a degree we want to have room for people who are not that good to still play and have fun.

That doesn't equate to people who are good, who have worked on those skills that win (aim, positioning, understanding the games play and mechanics, communication and coordination), as doing something wrong. Things like splitting the queue in CW are a concession to people who are comparatively bad and the game and don't want to do what would make them better still play. It is NOT 'protecting the poor innocent puggles from those mean unit bullies'.

Depends on what considers "communication and coordination".

[Yosharian]

Mystere, on 16 January 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

No... no, it didn't.

[Pjwned]

I don't understand why people go into damage control mode to such an extent that they make up obvious bull **** arguments from people who don't like CW. If you think that the issue is communication and coordination are considered exploits and/or bullying, you need an archaeology team to excavate your head out of your ***.

What it comes down to is this:

-The mode is drawn out, uninspired, boring, and not rewarding, and additionally it features terrible maps.

-The queue times as a PUG player are bad.

-When you finally get into a game there's a very real chance of getting stomped because you (and other similar-minded people) don't take the mode very seriously and just want to play something different, and when people don't like getting stomped and suggest split queues (like we already have in quick play) to make the mode less of piece of crap they are told "LOL GIT GUD AND DEAL WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARD ***** CW ISN'T FOR SCRUBS LOLOL."

Either way, the split queues as currently proposed don't do a damned thing anyways, so all the whining against it is completely unnecessary.

Edited by Pjwned, 16 January 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[wanderer]

Yosharian, on 16 January 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Please let me beat the **** out of uncoordinated PuGers with my uber pro unit group... please???

Dude, we 48-3'd recently a Davion PUG group with no more than 2 people from the same unit, and it wasn't even Liao veterans like TCAF.

We just had VOIP and used it, and yes they -were- the sterotypical disorganized horde coming in strung out and using large numbers of Trial 'Mechs. They were just plain bad. And no amount of queue-separation will fix that. It doesn't hurt that Liao "unitless" tend to end up learning from the smaller unit groups they frequently end up mixed in with during drops to work together. That's how we manage- smaller groups of better players can stiffen up a 12-man even if they're not all in the same unit.

And honestly, bad player skill tends to go right along with bad team skills. It's a lot more likely to see someone shooting like they're crosseyed and moving like a duck in a seizure if they're an eternal soloer than the unit-tagged guy with half-a-dozen the same. At the least, having a team can mean they're more likely to cover any one pilot's weaknesses, but solo there's no such aegis.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 16 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

-The mode is drawn out, uninspired, boring, and not rewarding, and additionally it features terrible maps.

Then ask PGI to fix it using better designs for game modes, maps, and planetary campaigns. Better yet, suggest your ideas.

Pjwned, on 16 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

-The queue times as a PUG player are bad.

Please explain. It's bad for everyone due to population issues.

Having said that, full 12-mans get to skip the line.

Pjwned, on 16 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Either way, the split queues as currently proposed don't do a damned thing anyways, so all the whining against it is completely unnecessary.

They are clearly doing one thing now, unnecessarily upsetting people, and not necessarily the alleged 12-man PUG-stomping bogeyman.

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2016 - 10:30 AM.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 16 January 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Then ask PGI to fix it using better designs for game modes, maps, and planetary campaigns. Better yet, suggest your ideas.

I have tried to do that to an extent before, but I'm not going to at this point; it just needs to come from PGI getting off their *** and doing something worthwhile but they have consistently shown that they won't.

Quote

Please explain. It's bad for everyone due to population issues.

Having said that, full 12-mans get to skip the line.

I realize it's bad for everybody, I guess I should have said it's worse for PUGs, and 12-man groups skipping in front is exactly why, so there's my explanation.

Quote

They are clearly doing one thing now, unnecessarily upsetting people, and not necessarily the alleged 12-man PUG-stomping bogeyman.

If people are getting unnecessarily upset over nothing then it's not PGI to blame for people getting upset; I don't blame PGI for things that are not their fault.

If PGI actually split queues into solo/group then there might be something for people to complain about, though I wouldn't be on their side.

Edited by Pjwned, 16 January 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[Barantor]

I love the amount of assumptions and theories that are taken as truths in this thread about future CW content.

Nobody knows till it happens, you guys are literally "pre-bitching" lol.

[MischiefSC]

I have no issue with the split queue - I'm for it so long as the pug queue doesn't take worlds. If it does then it's in direct competition with the unit queue and there will be exploits and people will use Alta to change the map using it. The problem is getting to change the map by avoiding playing coordinated players.

I don't want new players who can't effectively compete in CW yet playing in regular matches. It's had for them, it's not fun to play against them and they are literally losing the game for the faction they are fighting for. Exact same issue with people who play CW but don't want to communicate or coordinate. They are fundamentally disadvantaged against those who do and are sandbagging whoever they are playing for.

However the attitude that units just want to club seals or being good at the game (which, being a team game, means teamwork) is flat out wrong. I'm in a unit but almost exclusively pug in CW. Almost every 12man I've been in was a mixed drop. That's way more common than 12 from the same unit. The whole premise, this fantasy that every unit and every 12man is like MS and 228 is wrong.

The idea that somehow being in a unit gives some inherent special advantage is wrong. It's backwards - people who want to and are willing to ccommunicate and use teamwork join units. Units support teamwork but it's the player being willing to be in a team that gives the advatage.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with wanting to win. If I'm better at the game than you, I want to win. If a pug team out-plays a team they are not going to stop and say "Wait, we were more coordinated, this isn't fair". They're going to finish their win. Being good at coordination with your team is no more or less than being good at aiming. It's a skill and being good at it makes you better at the game than those who are not.

There is not and should not be a matchmaker in CW. That is one major factor that splits CW from pug queue. While there should be a way to introduce newer or less experienced players to CW if you want to compete for worlds you do so on an even field with all other competitors. If they are better shots, better skilled or better coordinated they will win. That's not cheating or unfair - the match isn't over cbills or kills but ownership of that world for your factions. What would be unfair is saying they don't get to fight their best with their best people for it.

[Sandpit]

Mystere, on 16 January 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

FTFY.

I dunno why you bother anymore honestly.

How many times have some of us in the community written these kinda of guides and such only to be met with stupid idiocy like

Yosharian, on 16 January 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Please let me beat the **** out of uncoordinated PuGers with my uber pro unit group... please???

when ti's the same few players who continue saying that because they want nothing more than to paint anyone who tries to play as a team as some sort of elitist dbag?

The ones that need to understand your OP do and have, the new players coming in understand. It's the same tryhards for 3 years now trying to show their "support" for the little guy when they do nothing but shout down the guides and information that would help imrpove the game experience for many.

It's become quite apparent over the last week or so that there are many who run around this forum in the name of "the little guy" who in all actuality want nothing more than to be able to easily farm them and keep the stats quo because they don't want to lose their new player farming avenues.

Just read and see who says what and start calling them out on it. That's the best way to let other players know who's really trying to improve things and who views them as nothing but canon fodder and "scrubs"