adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:
That's good that you mostly run in to pugs as a pug team, nothing much should change for you then. From the unit side of things, I quit because we ran in to nothing but pugs also. It was a straight up race to see who could get the most kills. I like good fights, win or lose, and there were few to be found in CW. This might change that.
The problem that drove that and still drives it is the attack vs defend queue. Attack flips worlds and needs a 12man, so units almost always drop attack queue. So if there are units on both sides they're dropping attack queue and pugs are dropping defense, even when you're begging them not to. In faction chat they'll say 'Yeah, but at least I'll get a fast drop'. You tell them 'You're going to be pugging with 11 pugs vs a 12man and get rolled. All you're doing is losing the world faster and feeding them wins. Come drop attack queue, we'll split up and mix with you'. They decline, they get eaten. If you can starve the enemy attack queue by keeping your pugs out of defense you can more or less force the units on the other side to switch to defense to get matches so you can play them directly and still take the world.
That's why I'm for combining attack/defend. That's a big part of the issue.
As I said before, all for making a tagless queue. Just don't let it compete with the tagged queue for flipping worlds, otherwise you more or less obligate everyone to exploit it to better take worlds. It's like playing with graphics on low - if you play competitively you more or less have to, because the other guy does and it provides an advantage. The team that exploits that advantage is more likely to win so you either do the same or you quit because you're never going to be able to keep up.
Fen Tetsudo, on 15 January 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:
But no one has said that communication & coordination are exploits or bullying.
More strawmen. Just because solo noobs are bad at communicating and coordinating play doesn't mean that they don't want to. Its like you are angry at them for not getting to your level of play overnight or something.
Again, who is pretending this? I've been following most these threads, and I don't recall anyone every claiming that communication and coordination is bullying. Can you cite a quote or something?
The need to learn the basic communication and coordination skills is one of my main concerns about a tagless queue. You're effectively cutting those players off from everyone who could really help them.
There is no 'strawman' in this argument; the idea that units are 'farming' and such and only want to beat up on tagless pugs is the strawman here. The idea that organized teams beat disorganized teams is somehow a balance issue is saying exactly that - that communicating and coordinating is some unfair trick or tool that nobody else has access to and that people who do communicate and coordinate are all just doing it to stomp over those who don't.
That's the basis of this whole problem and argument and it's false. This isn't about units vs non-units because pug groups full of unit tagged people get stomped just as often by top tier teams as tagless pug groups do. This is a natural product of an environment without a matchmaker - the best players and the worst players in the same place, playing the same matches and periodically coming into conflict.
Sometimes bad players and good players interact and bad players get better. Bad players who want to become good players will improve more from that then from 10,000 drops with other bad players because that's how you see what works vs what doesn't work. That's literally how humans improve, it's why pro sports even solo stuff like gymnastics, weight lifting and track all still play in teams and have coaches.
The issue is not and has never been 'teams vs pugs'. It's been 'good players in a team game vs bad players in a team game'. There's a big segment of bad players who don't want to improve. They don't want to get better, they want left alone to be bad. If this game had an actual deathmatch or Solaris mode that is one thing - it doesn't. So they sandbag every team they are on and are pretty much guaranteed to always lose to good players who understand that communication and coordination in a team game is a huge advantage. CW is the most team-oriented aspect of MW:O. Teamwork is more powerful there than any other mode so the gap between good team players and bad team players is larger.
That is however totally unrelated to the teams themselves - it's the players approach to teamwork. So yeah, all the 'teams are bullying pugs' is a flat out lie. Units all pug and we all deal with the same issues; if you pug on a team that doesn't communicate or coordinate you get rolled by those who do. The difference is that we're not blaming that on the other team all having the same unit tag, nor are we saying they're seeking us out. We recognize why we're losing.
Which is why I'm for a split queue under the right circumstances. I'd rather play with team-oriented people in a team v team game, because that wins.
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