89 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

If you artificially try to force players to break up their units (which are friends. Just groups of friends by and large) and split up, what is the point?

no one is being forced to break up units. there is zero reason to break up a unit just because the queue was split.

[MischiefSC]

Soultraxx, on 14 January 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:

So Units moan about noobs and solos in CW ruining their experience because they "dont like to farm" and want competitive matches.

And then............

they moan because they're going to face units and get competitive matches.

There's just no pleasing some people.

Nobody is complaining about facing units. They're complaining about introducing what is essentially a matchmaker into CW and trying to break up big units.

If the solo queue doesn't directly affect winning/losing in CW, great. All for it. The other stuff though? Total bull ****.

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

no one is being forced to break up units. there is zero reason to break up a unit just because the queue was split.

There are several things going on.

One is splitting the queues. I covered that.

The other is fees for large unit membership. Fees to add members also reduced rewards to units in CW based on big membership. Specifically done to try and force big units to break up.

[Duke Nedo]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

No. It is NOT in everyones best interests. If you want fair and even matches play in pug/group queue. There's a matchmaker there. CW is supposed to be a war between factions. If there are artificial limitations in place to keep anyone from having an advantage then why not just put leaderboards in for pug/group queue and run it that way with PSR?

But CW is not sandbox environment. This is not EVE, our star map is just a "crappy raid matchmaker" and a "2D leaderboard" that's it. There is nothing to fight for except a tag on the map.

What you're saying there is that you don't want more fair and even matches. Is that more fun? I don't get it. Does not compute. Error.

Had this been Eve Online I would have been with you though. There it's true sandbox, and with the odd exception large numbers beat skill.

[Johnny Z]

I always free drop when ever I feel like it. So I don't group up with a guild or what ever. I go with the teams that naturally form.

Anyway, I don't like this either. However there seems to be some mechanics being added that are not fully understood yet to do with a new queue. I havnt seen the details yet.

[MischiefSC]

Duke Nedo, on 15 January 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

But CW is not sandbox environment. This is not EVE, our star map is just a "crappy raid matchmaker" and a "2D leaderboard" that's it. There is nothing to fight for except a tag on the map.

What you're saying there is that you don't want more fair and even matches. Is that more fun? I don't get it. Does not compute. Error.

Had this been Eve Online I would have been with you though. There it's true sandbox, and with the odd exception large numbers beat skill.

CW was supposed to BE the sandbox. If I don't want a sandbox, I play in pug/group queue. You already have non-sandbox, curated, protected, PSR-segregated environments for group and dedicated pug play. Why do you need to beat the sandbox gameplay down to that level?

If you don't want the sandbox then just make it a leaderboard in pug/group queue. Put in PSR. If you're looking for 'even matches' then why not have PSR and tiers in CW? Why have CW independent of pug/group queue at all? New maps and game modes?

What you're saying is you don't understand why there is a Community Warfare independent of existing Quickplay pug/group queue, other than largely irrelevant faction-driven leaderboards and a pretty map.

[Soultraxx]

Newbs, noobs, solos, pugs etc will play CW no matter what warnings are put up. They want variety and respawns. We know that because it happens.

Invariably when facing a large group, even with co-ordination the PuGs will lose. Yes sometimes they win, but its a loss 90% of the time no matter how hard they try.

PuGs that get repeatedly stomped wont like this and some may leave and say to their mates that MWO is shite because its unbalanced and that they always got stomped - they wont mention the fact that theres a MM Pub queue, they'll just remember the stomps.

I like CW - in fact if I were in a well run unit then I think I would love it all the more, but sadly for a number of reasons (being partially deaf being one) I cant really be in a unit. There are probably loads more like me that cant be in a unit.

As such, I accept that stomps will happen as Im playing a game mode that wasnt designed for me, but many will not or cannot accept getting their arses kicked

Im sure its one of the reasons why so many people are for separating the queues.

[MischiefSC]

Soultraxx, on 15 January 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

Newbs, noobs, solos, pugs etc will play CW no matter what warnings are put up. They want variety and respawns. We know that because it happens.

Invariably when facing a large group, even with co-ordination the PuGs will lose. Yes sometimes they win, but its a loss 90% of the time no matter how hard they try.

PuGs that get repeatedly stomped wont like this and some may leave and say to their mates that MWO is shite because its unbalanced and that they always got stomped - they wont mention the fact that theres a MM Pub queue, they'll just remember the stomps.

I like CW - in fact if I were in a well run unit then I think I would love it all the more, but sadly for a number of reasons (being partially deaf being one) I cant really be in a unit. There are probably loads more like me that cant be in a unit.

As such, I accept that stomps will happen as Im playing a game mode that wasnt designed for me, but many will not or cannot accept getting their arses kicked

Im sure its one of the reasons why so many people are for separating the queues.

And I can get behind it. Handled intelligently it can be a sort of 'training queue' that some people never leave. That's okay. CW is hard and it's supposed to be.

The problem is getting to flip worlds without having to actually play against anyone good on the other faction and in punishing big units for.... being big units.

[LordNothing]

taking command no. but ive seen some drop callers from certain units shoot friendly players who dont obey them, and that is report worthy.

[MischiefSC]

LordNothing, on 15 January 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

taking command no. but ive seen some drop callers from certain units shoot friendly players who dont obey them, and that is report worthy.

Report that guy and if he does belong to a unit message the unit leader and send him a screencap.

If I ever acted like that and someone contacted CMetz or Radio I'd expect to get advised not to be a total and complete ****** if I want to be in the unit.

[Lupis Volk]

LordNothing, on 15 January 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

taking command no. but ive seen some drop callers from certain units shoot friendly players who dont obey them, and that is report worthy.

While i have never done that. I've come very close to on several occasions.

[Lykaon]

Nuebot, on 14 January 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

It's almost like they have to realize how insufferable it is to play against other people like themselves. "No, we just sit here and wait for them to attack" fifteen minutes later "No, we wait guys!" NO ONE MOVES!"

So you're lousy at CW matches then?

here is the issue that so many people are missing.

It's not that seperating players with Tags from unafilliataed players will make those nasty bully unit players get a taste of their own medicine and that is what they hate about a split queue.

Here is the simple and plain truth.There are a number of actual reasons players are opposed to split queues.

Split queues reduce the number of available players to build a match. reduced player volume directly equals longer wait times.Longer wait times directly equates to less play time and that equates to bored players who stop playing Wait Warrior Online and leave for another game. This slowly bleeds MWo to death as fewer and fewer players are in the queues leading to longer and longer wait times leading to more and more lost players.

Units are made up of players that begin playing as unaffiliated with any player organized units.The way Units meet and recruit is by playing with these unaffiliated players. Split queues remove units from their recruitment pool.This leads to slowly bleeding units to death if they can not recruit as fast or faster than the unit loses members. People come and go all the time and units need fresh players to keep their momentum going.

Unaffiliated players being seperated from Unit players removes the Unaffiliated players from the very players who can teach them the valuable skill sets of team work and communication.Without exposure to potential mentors new players are pretty much tossed into a match maker blender that equates to the moron lottery. What team is assigned the largest volume of derp is the loser because there will not likely be any other variable like team work organization or communication in play. This effectivley removes any sense of self destiny or purpose from a new solo players experiences. The matchmaker either puts them with the skilled or lucky ones or the new player "wins" the moron lottery and loses.

Units and unaffiliated players will be fighting over the same planets. This means that Units who have learned the skills of cooperation and communication that apply those skills to secure a victory may have any progress won undone by the unaffiliated queue's Moron Lottery Effect (M.L.E.) There is no recourse for the unit to help hold territory by splitting the larger group into smaller command groups to oversee defense of a newly captured world. They will be unable to join and lead the unaffiliated DERPTIDE to shape them into an effective fighting force. Effectivley all of CW will be reduced to a random number generator that assigns one team or the other with the larger sum of incompitence that determines the results of a plant's status.

This yet another example of solo pandering at the expense of player units.This is yet another reason to not even form a player unit.Player run units are a vital part of the in game community and any future plans PGI has for E-Sports is dependant on player units.Several portions of this game were designed for player units and as time goes on more and more of that support structure is stripped away in favor of pandering to the very players who do not play the game well.

And lastly. Solos have gotten the entirety of the rest of the game designed for them at the expense of grouping players.Solo only queue,Group queue with no solos preventing groups of all sizes, weird weight class limits for group queue restricting larger group's option and variety of mechs) PSR rating calculated in group queue dispite not effecting the match composition of PSR rated players (the group queue can have tier 5s face tier 1s Solo queue will never do this yet the lower tier players in the group queue WILL have PSR calculated by this match that ignores the rules for PSR match builds) and so on and so fourth.

Meanwhile the solo pandering has only enhanced the abilities of players who play poorly to continue to do so more easily.

It's time someone puts there foot down and puts a stop to the dumbing down of MWo.

[adamts01]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

The problem is getting to flip worlds without having to actually play against anyone good on the other faction and in punishing big units for.... being big units.

Not a problem at all, because they'll be facing other groups of pugs. Now groups fight groups and pugs fight pugs. Sounds pretty fair to me.

[Dino Might]

Having to fight other coordinated teams is not a punishment - that's a benefit.

The punishment is having a split queue so that wait times for games stretch from 20 minutes to 40 minutes, and an already de-populated game mode gets even worse. The better solution would be for everyone to choose to communicate and work together, so that all teams playing CW, whether PUG or organized unit, have a fighting chance and want to play together. Then we have insta-drops and close® matches.

With split queues and no event going on, CW is going to be a ghost town. I won't even bother queuing up anymore. As it is now, when I do go to play it, I usually have Fallout 4 or some other game I am playing between matches because the wait is so often quite long.

Edited by Dino Might, 15 January 2016 - 02:54 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

With this new queue people like me who are still trying to grasp CW will be pitted against the likes of Kcom and other top tier units. So now the greedy, selfish pugs won't be seal clubbed. It'll be people who went the extra mile and joined a unit who'll be seal clubbed. GG PGI CW ruined.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 15 January 2016 - 02:55 AM.

[MischiefSC]

adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Not a problem at all, because they'll be facing other groups of pugs. Now groups fight groups and pugs fight pugs. Sounds pretty fair to me.

So play in the pug queue. Because if all the fights are 'fair' it's not really Community Warfare, is it? It's just carefully balanced matches with a leaderboard.

It's not faction vs faction; it's segregated group vs segregated group. Marik isn't fighting Liao, Marik pugs only have to fight Liao pugs, not Liao units.

Quite genuinely; why not just put PSR tier matchmaking in? Indeed, why have quickplay separate from CW? Just require everyone to pick a faction. You earn 'points' for your faction with each match you win. You can play as a terribad T5 pug against other terribad T5 pugs, never play against units or anyone better than yourself and still be every bit as useful to your faction as the T1 unit players in group queue. You'll both have approximately 50/50 win rates in carefully balanced and curated matches.

Why have CW? Genuine question - what is the point of CW in that instance rather than just new maps/modes for pug queue? Loyalty point rewards? So you want pug queue but with LP rewards?

Why is it a problem? It's the exact same problem as you being declared the World Heavyyeight Champion in boxing because you beat up the biggest 4th grader in your school. You're not the World Heavyweight Champion because you never had to fight any actual professional boxers. Can you be the best boxer in your grade school? Sure. You can even be the best 4th grade boxer EVER. Until you beat the actual pros though you don't get to compete for the world title.

This isn't a complex concept. Just a lot of excuses for why people should get all the same rewards without having to take the same risks or cultivate the same level of skill. You already have what you're asking for in pug queue.

Lupis Volk, on 15 January 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

With this new queue people like me who are still trying to grasp CW will be pitted against the likes of Kcom and other top tier units. So now the greedy, selfish pugs won't be seal clubbed. It'll be people who went the extra mile and joined a unit who'll be seal clubbed. GG PGI CW ruined.

No no, that's totally different. Your 6 player group of casuals who decided to form a unit are exactly like competitive teams. Because the moment you get a unit tag you're totally different.

The sheer absurdity of it all. This attempt to pretend that the problem is people having a tag next to their name and not what is, essentially, a PSR issue. People who play in a T5 fashion wanting to win wars against T1 groups without having to actually play them, just other T5 people.

[Lykaon]

Soultraxx, on 15 January 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

Newbs, noobs, solos, pugs etc will play CW no matter what warnings are put up. They want variety and respawns. We know that because it happens.

Invariably when facing a large group, even with co-ordination the PuGs will lose. Yes sometimes they win, but its a loss 90% of the time no matter how hard they try.

PuGs that get repeatedly stomped wont like this and some may leave and say to their mates that MWO is shite because its unbalanced and that they always got stomped - they wont mention the fact that theres a MM Pub queue, they'll just remember the stomps.

I like CW - in fact if I were in a well run unit then I think I would love it all the more, but sadly for a number of reasons (being partially deaf being one) I cant really be in a unit. There are probably loads more like me that cant be in a unit.

here is one more thing worth mentioning. Solo unafilliated players are the players most likely to jump ship for the next game. Affiliated unit players have made a commitment to the game and their unit.And as such are far more likely to be here months down the line. So concerning yourself with IF the puggies will leave for another game is kinda pointless 'cause they will no matter what.They have set down no roots.

Pandering to players who are very likely to be playing whatever hot AAA title game released next month just seems like a stupid plan to me.

I understand improving gameplay for entry level players. That is just good sense.But pandering to a largely transient group at the expense of the dedicated group is just plainly a bad business model.

The vast majority of players who play are fully capable of joining player units. A 100% deaf and Mute player could join a unit.This game supports text chat! Even a player unable to hear or speak would benifit from unit membership simply by observing and learning how cooperative tactics function getting tips from veterans and mech build advise from players who have first hand knowledge of the builds/mechs in question. it would be a real fringe case of a disability preventing unit participation as far as I can see it.

Players claiming they lack the time to join a unit are also clinging to an excuse. It takes nearly no additional time to load up MWo with Teamspeak and jump into a group. If a player does not have four seconds for this then honestly they have no time to be playing a video game at all. And this player should not feel entitled to have an ENTIRE game altered to suit their way to busy life.I and many many others DO have time to play and do not need MWo dumbed down to some short attention span twitchy phone app.

[Soultraxx]

Lykaon, on 15 January 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

here is one more thing worth mentioning. Solo unafilliated players are the players most likely to jump ship for the next game. Affiliated unit players have made a commitment to the game and their unit.And as such are far more likely to be here months down the line. So concerning yourself with IF the puggies will leave for another game is kinda pointless 'cause they will no matter what.They have set down no roots.

Pandering to players who are very likely to be playing whatever hot AAA title game released next month just seems like a stupid plan to me.

I understand improving gameplay for entry level players. That is just good sense.But pandering to a largely transient group at the expense of the dedicated group is just plainly a bad business model.

The vast majority of players who play are fully capable of joining player units. A 100% deaf and Mute player could join a unit.This game supports text chat! Even a player unable to hear or speak would benifit from unit membership simply by observing and learning how cooperative tactics function getting tips from veterans and mech build advise from players who have first hand knowledge of the builds/mechs in question. it would be a real fringe case of a disability preventing unit participation as far as I can see it.

Players claiming they lack the time to join a unit are also clinging to an excuse. It takes nearly no additional time to load up MWo with Teamspeak and jump into a group. If a player does not have four seconds for this then honestly they have no time to be playing a video game at all. And this player should not feel entitled to have an ENTIRE game altered to suit their way to busy life.I and many many others DO have time to play and do not need MWo dumbed down to some short attention span twitchy phone app.

I agrre with some of what you say about transient players.

Moving further down - Im sure a drop commanders going to love having to keep repeating himself or stop fighting to type out an order because I cant hear what is being said.
You know what its like having to type in the heat of the action - its not feasible.

Moving further down. Yep it only takes a few seconds to load TS. But how many drop commanders or team members are going to like team members with young families having to go afk because their son/ daughter/ wife/ husband needs them for one of a hundred things that pop up each day?

[adamts01]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

So play in the pug queue. Because if all the fights are 'fair' it's not really Community Warfare, is it? It's just carefully balanced matches with a leaderboard.

This is a GAME. If one side has a 99% chance to win, only seal clubbers will stick around. I stopped playing CW because my unit was absolutely walking all over everyone, except the 1/10 matches when we came across a unit. So many people compare this to real warfare, that's such a joke. Any sport in the world is more enjoyed when there's a struggle, for both the competitor and the spectator. Competition is good, and soon CW will have it. And to any of you in a decent unit, be honest, when's the last time a pug group beat you? I don't care what people say about using voip and teamwork, you've got to be an absolute **** 12 man to lose against 12 randoms.

[KinLuu]

I like how it is mostly Davions complaining about having to face other (presumably non-Davion) groups.

[MischiefSC]

adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

This is a GAME. If one side has a 99% chance to win, only seal clubbers will stick around. I stopped playing CW because my unit was absolutely walking all over everyone, except the 1/10 matches when we came across a unit. So many people compare this to real warfare, that's such a joke. Any sport in the world is more enjoyed when there's a struggle, for both the competitor and the spectator. Competition is good, and soon CW will have it. And to any of you in a decent unit, be honest, when's the last time a pug group beat you? I don't care what people say about using voip and teamwork, you've got to be an absolute **** 12 man to lose against 12 randoms.

So as has been said like 50 times by a dozen people -

Splitting queues? Okay. Good plan even, treat the pug queue like a training queue as well, help get new players into CW in a safer environment. Plenty of people will never leave it.

Everyone is good with competition. What is not good is, in the context of your analogy, letting a high school team win the Super Bowl because they beat another high school team without ever having to play against an actual pro team. In anything involving competition you don't get to win the Super Bowl unless you play and beat a Super Bowl team. If you can win the Super Bowl by only playing against high school teams, why the **** wouldn't you just play high school teams even if you're a pro-grade player?

The MC rewards for tags on planets won't really stop that; you'll have a primary that drops group queue with your unit to capture worlds and a pug alt to club seals to make sure you never lose it. Or, for the 80% of players who are in non-comp tier units there is absolutely no benefit at all to being in a unit, better to just all flood the matchmaker-less pug queue and earn big cbill payouts.

Make sense? There are good concepts but terrible design choices. If you don't play in the same pool as the competitive teams you don't get to take the same tier of objectives. Otherwise you're competing for the same prize without having to directly compete.

Take the tagless and new players out. Dear god yes please. That would be amazing. Shrink the total queues; as has been suggested, repeatedly, combine the attack/defend queue on each front to just a single queue. That should more than make up for any population issues. It also ensure you really can't avoid other teams if you're not on the same faction already; if you are in CJF and you queue up to fight Steiner and I'm in Steiner and I queue up to fight CJF we're in the same queue. No way for us both to queue attack and never play against each other, just randoms.

Tailor rewards to who you play against. If 228 makes minimal payout for beating a mixed unit of semi-casual unit players and a big payout for beating a MS 12man you can expect them to seek each other out - that's what pays the best.

Remove the goofy MC for tagging worlds thing. Exploiting that is going to become a game of its own and it'll make the cries of 'seal clubbing' seem tame.

KinLuu, on 15 January 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:

I like how it is mostly Davions complaining about having to face other (presumably non-Davion) groups.

.....

Really? Most the tags on people arguing against the split at all are Davion, not that it matters.

You know the faction you belong to isn't real, right? I mean, you're not really a member of Clan Jade Falcon. You're just some gamer nerd, like the rest of us.