190 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Scout Derek, on 19 January 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Sometimes I wonder why more reports pop up over the weekend than they do on the weekdays....

I thought it'd be something else, like free time, but that's not it.

I'm going to have "fun" reading all of this...

thanks guys.... ;-;

(Scrubbing posts and will now work on the forums while at the break here at work...)

cuz we love ya?

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 19 January 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

Before the quirkening, the DW needed to fear an Atlas on the flank under 300m.

Now, with super structure quirked, tight spread SRM toting Atlases with ECM that run 60 kph versus the 50 kph in the DW that has gimped twist...it is not even a fight up close. Before, the DW had to be able to maneuver well enough to get 2-3 volleys off to drop an Atlas...now...a DW has no chance unless the Atlas pilot is brain dead.

Any mech would fear an Atlas on their flank. A flanking mech ALWAYS has the advantage. Can you not accept that two different mechs have different advantages? Seriously.. its like you need to have the advantage in every single scenario. Any situation at range the Dire has the advantage. Only when the Atlas is allowed to close does it truly dominate. If the Atlas closes on your Dire and you are screwed, its a positioning fail on your part.

[pattonesque]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 January 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Any mech would fear an Atlas on their flank. A flanking mech ALWAYS has the advantage. Can you not accept that two different mechs have different advantages? Seriously.. its like you need to have the advantage in every single scenario. Any situation at range the Dire has the advantage. Only when the Atlas is allowed to close does it truly dominate. If the Atlas closes on your Dire and you are screwed, its a positioning fail on your part.

my man thinks his clan mechs need to make up for his case of the piloting Bads

[Jman5]

Scout Derek, on 19 January 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Sometimes I wonder why more reports pop up over the weekend than they do on the weekdays....

I thought it'd be something else, like free time, but that's not it.

I'm going to have "fun" reading all of this...

thanks guys.... ;-;

(Scrubbing posts and will now work on the forums while at the break here at work...)

[pwnface]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

You never did discuss side torsos...

Just saying...anyone can frame an argument in their favor.

Forget side torsos. Let's measure the entire mech.

70t WHM - 767 combined armor/structure
100t AS7 without quirks - 927 combined armor/structure

767 < 927. Math

The Warhammer has around 82% of the armor/structure of an unquirked 100t mech.

[Chuck Jager]

pattonesque, on 19 January 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

my man thinks his clan mechs need to make up for his case of the piloting Bads

But it used to be able to do it all but a wee bit slower. That was the old balance - lol

[pwnface]

Deathlike, on 17 January 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

I still love the superior King Crab vs inferior Dire Wolf argument (hilarious and wrong), so good luck with that.

It's OK to admit when you're wrong, but it's more hilarious when you double down on a bad position.

I loved how Gyrok was trying to convince people the KGC was as good of a chassis as the DWF. That was hilarious.

[pattonesque]

pwnface, on 19 January 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I loved how Gyrok was trying to convince people the KGC was as good of a chassis as the DWF. That was hilarious.

lol imagine having an opinion this wrong

[Gyrok]

pwnface, on 19 January 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I loved how Gyrok was trying to convince people the KGC was as good of a chassis as the DWF. That was hilarious.

You overlook that quad UAC5 build on the KGC hits a single component, and puts out DPS rivaling the DW 5 UAC5 build which spreads (albeit less now than before...but still).

Pinpoint FLD is an evil mistress, and if you can aim, the KGC is strong in the same way the DW is strong, except the KGC does it with more speed and/or STD engine.

The KGC is the IS equivalent to the DW ballistic boats now. You see them as often as you do the DW, (which is to say both are pretty rare anymore...)

The only area where the KGC is anything less than a DW would be with a Gauss + ERLL type setup versus something on the DW like the old Alpha King build.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 January 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 20 January 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

You overlook that quad UAC5 build on the KGC hits a single component, and puts out DPS rivaling the DW 5 UAC5 build which spreads (albeit less now than before...but still).

Rivaling is not the same as equal, the 5 UAC5 Dire is still better.

Gyrok, on 20 January 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

The KGC is the IS equivalent to the DW now.

No, just no. The Whale is still king of firing lines and the King Crab does not compare.

[Wraith31]

pwnface, on 19 January 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Forget side torsos. Let's measure the entire mech.

70t WHM - 767 combined armor/structure
100t AS7 without quirks - 927 combined armor/structure

767 < 927. Math

The Warhammer has around 82% of the armor/structure of an unquirked 100t mech.

So in terms of structure/armor, it is essentially a stalker...

Some hyperbole in there...however...it still brings a valid point. The IS has lots of gundams that have significantly more armor/structure than the clans, and bring similar firepower at similar range now.

Essentially, if you drop against an average drop with a couple of assaults and 2-3 heavies...you end up really fighting 5-6 assault mechs.

Edited by Wraith31, 20 January 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

Wraith31, on 20 January 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

So in terms of structure/armor, it is essentially a stalker...

Some hyperbole in there...however...it still brings a valid point. The IS has lots of gundams that have significantly more armor/structure than the clans, and bring similar firepower at similar range now.

Essentially, if you drop against an average drop with a couple of assaults and 2-3 heavies...you end up really fighting 5-6 assault mechs.

My heavies are getting higher damage numbers and lasting longer. Whatever armor bonuses my assaults have it is lost just in repositioning and hitbox size. The best assault role I have seen is in attack or defense in CW where you know what the base tactics are and when/where to go. Pug solo is the other side of that coin.

[pwnface]

Gyrok, on 20 January 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

You overlook that quad UAC5 build on the KGC hits a single component, and puts out DPS rivaling the DW 5 UAC5 build which spreads (albeit less now than before...but still).

Pinpoint FLD is an evil mistress, and if you can aim, the KGC is strong in the same way the DW is strong, except the KGC does it with more speed and/or STD engine.

The KGC is the IS equivalent to the DW ballistic boats now. You see them as often as you do the DW, (which is to say both are pretty rare anymore...)

The only area where the KGC is anything less than a DW would be with a Gauss + ERLL type setup versus something on the DW like the old Alpha King build.

This is why nobody takes you seriously and the first responses on your threads are always "Shut up Gyrok".

[Gyrok]

pwnface, on 21 January 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

This is why nobody takes you seriously and the first responses on your threads are always "Shut up Gyrok".

KGC 10 DPS sustained with more structure, more speed and more survivability: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...43d021da2e24204

DWF 13 DPS sustained: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9e65e0da2dd9931

EDIT: Double tapping put the KGC about 19 DPS and the DWF around 23 DPS, enough for either to melt anything handily.

Edited by Gyrok, 21 January 2016 - 07:07 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wraith31, on 20 January 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

So in terms of structure/armor, it is essentially a stalker...

Some hyperbole in there...however...it still brings a valid point. The IS has lots of gundams that have significantly more armor/structure than the clans, and bring similar firepower at similar range now.

Essentially, if you drop against an average drop with a couple of assaults and 2-3 heavies...you end up really fighting 5-6 assault mechs.

That's isn't quite true, I still cannot alpha for 54 damage at 450 m on the IS side, or use the same build to poke for 26 damage at 660 meters. Black Knight can do 350 meters now, and then 33 at 490 m. Which is pretty solid I agree, but then Timber Wolf has JJS and Ebon Jag has high hardpoints for those cLPLs. So the added durability is more or less a wash since it can't poke as well. Warhammer hardpoints are pretty close behind the Black Knight but they are a bit better. They don't have as many weapon quirks but have more structure. Meh, no huge travesty here either in my opinion.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 21 January 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

KGC 10 DPS sustained with more structure, more speed and more survivability: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...43d021da2e24204

DWF 13 DPS sustained: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9e65e0da2dd9931

EDIT: Double tapping put the KGC about 19 DPS and the DWF around 23 DPS, enough for either to melt anything handily.

Try dropping the lasers and running 2 10s and 3 5s. Can also do 3 10s and 2 5s since they upped UAC10 ammo per ton, that's a little hotter but the burst DPS is insane.

Also, the Dire Wolf has better hardpoint location. King Crab's arms are low and wide. I will also point out that it gets no added structure. Only armor added to its arms.

A Mauler will probably be a better comparison but in order to compete with the DPS it needs an XL engine.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 January 2016 - 07:47 AM.

[Sjorpha]

This thread is so bad I feel dumber for having read it.

A duel between Gyrok and Kristian Radulov would be fun to watch though.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

Also, the Dire Wolf has better hardpoint location. King Crab's arms are low and wide. I will also point out that it gets no added structure. Only armor added to its arms.

King Crab gets extra arm durability, Queen Crab Marauder doesn't. Both have most of their firepower in said arms.

Boo-hiss!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

A Mauler will probably be a better comparison but in order to compete with the DPS it needs an XL engine.

You can run 4 UAC5 on a STD engine Mauler and still be faster than the Dire, honestly the Mauler is a better dakka mech than the King Crab especially for the tonnage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 January 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[pwnface]

Gyrok, on 21 January 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

KGC 10 DPS sustained with more structure, more speed and more survivability: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...43d021da2e24204

DWF 13 DPS sustained: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9e65e0da2dd9931

EDIT: Double tapping put the KGC about 19 DPS and the DWF around 23 DPS, enough for either to melt anything handily.

So by "more structure and more survivability" you mean the 17 armor KGC get on their arms? Give me a f*cking break dude. Having a clan XL is way better than having tougher arms that never get shot off anyway.

Also comparing sustained DPS is pretty much pointless and especially bad when you stack 4xC-ERML on your DWF buiid. Even so, the DWF has both higher sustain and burst damage.

3xUAC5 2xUAC10 builds double tap for 70 damage. 4xUAC10 builds double tap for 80 damage. KGC double taps for 40 damage.

You simply can't make a case that the KGC is as good as a DWF. It loses in every department besides "possible max speed" which the KGC can't really even take advantage of if it's running a comparable dakka DPS build. The DWF even has torso mounted ballistic hardpoints which are superior to the KGC's low slung arms.

The fact that you are still trying to make this argument work somehow is hilarious. Never change Gyrok, but please shut up.