190 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Lykaon, on 17 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

The thing is I really think that maybe structure quirking is a good choice while weapon quirking is a poor choice.

My thoughts on general balance between clan tech and Inner Sphere tech.

Clan mechs should be faster and more agile. They get this with the Clan XLs so perhaps a slight ballance pass on torso and arm agility as well as accel decel rates to get the clan mechs feeling "sporty" in handling.

Clan tech weapons should retain the range advantage where it exists on the weapon basic stats. Remove the range quirking from most I.S. mechs.

Clan tech weapons should retain the damage levels without being quirked with extremely long laser burn durations or ER -PPC splash mechanics.

How do we balance these longer ranged harder hitting weapons? Heat levels and cooldowns. Clan mechs should possess painfully effective alpha strikes that build high heat and require sufficent cooldown of weapon fire rates to prevent abuse.With this mechanic the clan mechs can use their superior mobility to get in hit and fade to cool down. The big boys like the direwolf trade this mobility for absurd firepower with over 50 tons of pod space for un-nerfed clan weapons.

The Clan style of warfare is to hit hard hit fast and do it all efficently.

Clan mechs do not get structure or armor quirking (unless it's needed to make a mech playable that otherwise would have suicidal hitboxes ...Naga anyone? )

Inner sphere mechs do get liberal structure quirking to enhance durrability. This is the counter to the clan's higher damage values and range advantages.The I.S. mechs need the tankyness to weather the storm to close in and fight at I.S. ranges.

Most weapon quirks should be removed. Especially specific weapon quirking (I prefer energy cooldown -5 to seeing medium pulse laser cooldown -10 or both together...yeeesh)

Weapon quirks should be reserved for enhancing native builds that retain limited weapons. IE. Awesome 8Q should get PPC quirks,Catapult 1c 1a and 4c get LRM quirks Hunchback 3G AC 20 quirking etc. The idea is encourage the mech's designed role with that chassis. by quirking to enhance the design's native role. (Clan Omni mechs do not have a native role due to being Omnimechs but maybe a similar thing should be implimented for clan Battlemechs like the IIc mechs)

I agree with all that you said about Clan Tech.

However, making the weapon characteristics different is enough to balance the weaponry across Techlines.

I actually think that the IS/Clan weapon balance is very close right now. I like the differences in ACs (single-slug vs. burst). I like the differences in LRMs (flight vs stream). I think that the high heat of Clan lasers (and the subsequent quantities of heatsinks Clanners must take) pretty well counterbalances the range and damage; I think that the lower heat of IS lasers allowing them to alpha more in the brawl is just great.

The Quirks and durability have little to do with weapon balance. I state again: If XL engines were properly fixed, IS 'Mechs would be plenty durable and we wouldn't need the over-Quirks.

Then we could go back and look at chassis/variants for features to reflect via Quirks. For example, that shield on the Centurion LA clearly demands armor/structure bonuses.

That, along with other feature-based Quirks, would be a right use of durability Quirks.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

For my part, I've reasoned with Gyrok before. We don't see eye to eye, but I've not actually attacked him over it. We both have backgrounds in game development and basically agree to disagree.

Of all this, I have to agree here...you have always at least been respectful about it.

EDIT: Honestly, the first post is really reasonable, and makes some valid points in what I am saying. My points there were that Clans had hardwired internal components, and eschew the option of choice for many things to gain the strengths they had. At this point, the strengths they had are not strengths anymore.

The second thing you posted has numerous people on this forum discussing the pros and cons of the 3D vs the TW, and many more than just myself stating that the CTF had inherent advantages. Now, that the CTF hitboxes were reworked, it is less XL friendly, though that hardly detracts from the arguments made. My point was not just torso twist, it was flexibility and hardpoint placement, as well as cooling capacity.

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 17 January 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

I agree with all that you said about Clan Tech.

However, making the weapon characteristics different is enough to balance the weaponry across Techlines.

I actually think that the IS/Clan weapon balance is very close right now. I like the differences in ACs (single-slug vs. burst). I like the differences in LRMs (flight vs stream). I think that the high heat of Clan lasers (and the subsequent quantities of heatsinks Clanners must take) pretty well counterbalances the range and damage; I think that the lower heat of IS lasers allowing them to alpha more in the brawl is just great.

The Quirks and durability have little to do with weapon balance. I state again: If XL engines were properly fixed, IS 'Mechs would be plenty durable and we wouldn't need the over-Quirks.

Then we could go back and look at chassis/variants for features to reflect via Quirks. For example, that shield on the Centurion LA clearly demands armor/structure bonuses.

That, along with other feature-based Quirks, would be a right use of durability Quirks.

I think LFEs would go a long way to evening that out...personally.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 January 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Of all this, I have to agree here...you have always at least been respectful about it.

Ya know, I spent quite a bit of time trying to be respectful. It was your attitude toward others when they actually did as you asked and disproved your notions that caused me to stop.

Yeonne no doubt has the high road here, but respect tends to be a two way street. Can you be respectful toward Johnny Z?
Because not trying to be a jerk, but most of us just see you guys as opposite ends of the same hyperbolistic, myopic and generally incorrect, coin.

Maybe we're all wrong. But it's food for thought.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Ya know, I spent quite a bit of time trying to be respectful. It was your attitude toward others when they actually did as you asked and disproved your notions that caused me to stop.

Yeonne no doubt has the high road here, but respect tends to be a two way street. Can you be respectful toward Johnny Z?
Because not trying to be a jerk, but most of us just see you guys as opposite ends of the same hyperbolistic, myopic and generally incorrect, coin.

Maybe we're all wrong. But it's food for thought.

You know Bishop...

I am not being myopic at all.

Think about this...everything I said would come true regarding clan balance happened.

The "IS is underpowered still, even with OP mechs" crowd is being myopic in the sense that they cannot see past a TW/EBJ/SCR.

For crying out loud, even the once heavily touted DW is now on the verge of extinction. What does it take for someone to admit something so simple as, "hey, you know what...maybe he does have a point...a lot of clan mechs are in a bad spot."?

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

Think about that...your mech is already now crippled...and your movement is also crippled, so you cannot even maneuver safely out of harm's way? I say a stiffer heat penalty or something else makes a lot more sense than killing the one thing that actually gave the bad clan robots something of a fighting chance.

When did you last see any of the bad clan robots in group queue? You might see them in solo queue because new players do not know better...but the reality is...the very strength of the omnimechs that kept the bad mechs competitive is now the achilles heel that makes them totally undesirable.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

You know Bishop...

I am not being myopic at all.

Think about this...everything I said would come true regarding clan balance happened.

The "IS is underpowered still, even with OP mechs" crowd is being myopic in the sense that they cannot see past a TW/EBJ/SCR.

For crying out loud, even the once heavily touted DW is now on the verge of extinction. What does it take for someone to admit something so simple as, "hey, you know what...maybe he does have a point...a lot of clan mechs are in a bad spot."?

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

Think about that...your mech is already now crippled...and your movement is also crippled, so you cannot even maneuver safely out of harm's way? I say a stiffer heat penalty or something else makes a lot more sense than killing the one thing that actually gave the bad clan robots something of a fighting chance.

When did you last see any of the bad clan robots in group queue? You might see them in solo queue because new players do not know better...but the reality is...the very strength of the omnimechs that kept the bad mechs competitive is now the achilles heel that makes them totally undesirable.

Most reasonable people are all about buffing bad Clan mechs. And I think they would also agree that mechs like the BJ might need a little toning down. Of course they are going to focus on TW/EBJ/SCR/ACH, that is what the competitive "tryhard" crowd is going to be using.

What people like me DON'T like, are sensationalized comments about how Clan mechs are "unplayable", and how IS mechs are completely unbeatable. That crap is ridiculous. Even in CW, where those Clan heavies (EBJ,HBR,TW) are still monsters, you had people say that they couldn't win. It really just makes the level-headed crowds smirk and roll their eyes. I just wish people would accept that balance is actually pretty good. Both sides still have some garbage robots that need help, but other than that, I don't really feel like I am ever at a disadvantage, having played both extensively.

[Summon3r]

whether you like the OP or not the quirkening has gotten absurd, the blackjack for example that has more hit points then mechs far above its tonnage on both IS and Clan sides is absolute insanity.

tbh its to the point now where we may as well give clan the option of standard or XL engines and have the clan XL blow on ST loss.

[Gas Guzzler]

Summon3r, on 17 January 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

whether you like the OP or not the quirkening has gotten absurd, the blackjack for example that has more hit points then mechs far above its tonnage on both IS and Clan sides is absolute insanity.

tbh its to the point now where we may as well give clan the option of standard or XL engines and have the clan XL blow on ST loss.

Nah. The blackjack should just be toned down a bit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

You know Bishop...

I am not being myopic at all.

Think about this...everything I said would come true regarding clan balance happened.

The "IS is underpowered still, even with OP mechs" crowd is being myopic in the sense that they cannot see past a TW/EBJ/SCR.

For crying out loud, even the once heavily touted DW is now on the verge of extinction. What does it take for someone to admit something so simple as, "hey, you know what...maybe he does have a point...a lot of clan mechs are in a bad spot."?

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

Think about that...your mech is already now crippled...and your movement is also crippled, so you cannot even maneuver safely out of harm's way? I say a stiffer heat penalty or something else makes a lot more sense than killing the one thing that actually gave the bad clan robots something of a fighting chance.

When did you last see any of the bad clan robots in group queue? You might see them in solo queue because new players do not know better...but the reality is...the very strength of the omnimechs that kept the bad mechs competitive is now the achilles heel that makes them totally undesirable.

Yes, getting slow and crippled is such BS...when the IS ends up dead in the same scenario. And the "but IS can use STD Engines" was blown out of the water, because the C-XL allows so much more firepower as to make it moot.

[Summon3r]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

Nah. The blackjack should just be toned down a bit.

agree, that was just an example of how far things are getting out of hand in attempts to balance on a 1 to 1 IS to Clan

[Gas Guzzler]

Its also worth mentioning that some IS players would be totally on board for some strong structure quirks added to the Kingfisher were it added to the game.

Summon3r, on 17 January 2016 - 08:07 PM, said:

agree, that was just an example of how far things are getting out of hand in attempts to balance on a 1 to 1 IS to Clan

Well is there another mech that is really that dominant? Talking about in game experience, not the numbers on the quirks list.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Of all this, I have to agree here...you have always at least been respectful about it.

EDIT: Honestly, the first post is really reasonable, and makes some valid points in what I am saying. My points there were that Clans had hardwired internal components, and eschew the option of choice for many things to gain the strengths they had. At this point, the strengths they had are not strengths anymore.

The second thing you posted has numerous people on this forum discussing the pros and cons of the 3D vs the TW, and many more than just myself stating that the CTF had inherent advantages. Now, that the CTF hitboxes were reworked, it is less XL friendly, though that hardly detracts from the arguments made. My point was not just torso twist, it was flexibility and hardpoint placement, as well as cooling capacity.



I think LFEs would go a long way to evening that out...personally.

They really wouldn't. Unfortunately, they would just be another poor substitute option (albeit, less bad) and we would still be left in a position where Quirks would be used to beef up IS durability.

But, with their addition the current set of Quirks would need to be reworked... again. That in turn would make exacerbate the over-Quirk problem and at the same time be a lot of development work/time.

That time being a compounding of the time it takes to develop working LFEs! So, twice the problems, twice the time and none of the solution.

There really is only one solution: make XL engines function like Clan engine (with different values for penalties) and buff STD engines to be a viable alternative.

Do this and we never have to look at engines again! Such a simple and effective solution.

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

Think about that...your mech is already now crippled...and your movement is also crippled, so you cannot even maneuver safely out of harm's way?

Actually, these penalties do make sense. If your 'Mech is crippled, it's crippled. Crippled means "unable to walk or move properly; disabled".

Movement penalties are sensible, logical and reasonable on Clan 'Mechs.

It's death on IS XL coupled with durability over-Quirking that's not reasonable.

[Bishop Steiner]

Summon3r, on 17 January 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

whether you like the OP or not the quirkening has gotten absurd, the blackjack for example that has more hit points then mechs far above its tonnage on both IS and Clan sides is absolute insanity.

tbh its to the point now where we may as well give clan the option of standard or XL engines and have the clan XL blow on ST loss.

No denying that there are some absurd exceptions. I was one of those who said the TDR-9S was overquirked, if you recall.

The issue tends to be the sheer hyperbole.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

Yes, getting slow and crippled is such BS...when the IS ends up dead in the same scenario. And the "but IS can use STD Engines" was blown out of the water, because the C-XL allows so much more firepower as to make it moot.

How about that 5SS tbolt?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03a80edad550afd

Or the myriad STK builds with STD engines?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e42d772aa70e8f1

The issue is...strong structure quirks with STD engines are too strong.

Clan ST speed loss penalty is too much when a mech like a BJ1X can soak a 45pt alpha strike and keep ticking...with an XL engine

People wonder how clans get 4K dmg in a CW match?? Structure quirks, that is how....

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Its also worth mentioning that some IS players would be totally on board for some strong structure quirks added to the Kingfisher were it added to the game.



Well is there another mech that is really that dominant? Talking about in game experience, not the numbers on the quirks list.

The tech tree has to be balanced before the mechs can be.

PGI refuses to add the missing high tech IS weapons and advance to 3060-ish.

ER lasers, UACs, RACs, LBXs, SSRMs, XPLs, etc. would go a long way to solving these issues.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

How about that 5SS tbolt?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03a80edad550afd

Or the myriad STK builds with STD engines?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e42d772aa70e8f1

The issue is...strong structure quirks with STD engines are too strong.

Clan ST speed loss penalty is too much when a mech like a BJ1X can soak a 45pt alpha strike and keep ticking...with an XL engine

People wonder how clans get 4K dmg in a CW match?? Structure quirks, that is how....



The tech tree has to be balanced before the mechs can be.

PGI refuses to add the missing high tech IS weapons and advance to 3060-ish.

ER lasers, UACs, RACs, LBXs, SSRMs, XPLs, etc. would go a long way to solving these issues.

5SS has 15 structure added to the side torsos, that is it. It has no durability added to the CT.

The Stalker also has no structure quirks at all, and minor weapon quirks to accompany it. Stalkers are great for a certain style of fighting, but they have weaknesses, just like most other mechs.

Adding more weapons seems like complicating everything, but it could help, doesn't sound like we are going to get it for some time though.

And, do we want any mech to be one shot from a 45 damage alpha? Can you one shot a Shadow Cat with a 45 point alpha (aside from the head) I don't even think you can one shot the side torso of a Scat, need ~60ish damage.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 January 2016 - 08:37 PM.

[Gyrok]

Not one shot from a 45 pt alpha, but a 45 ton mech should at least be thinking about being a bit less brazen at that point. The BJs just literally shrug it off...

[Summon3r]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 08:09 PM, said:

Its also worth mentioning that some IS players would be totally on board for some strong structure quirks added to the Kingfisher were it added to the game.



Well is there another mech that is really that dominant? Talking about in game experience, not the numbers on the quirks list.

i guess one could put the atlas in the ring here with its huge agility quirks, atlas with agility quirks is a little odd no? especially considering how awful the the direpuppy moves. anyhow im not interested in the clan vs IS debate anymore just along for robot shooting since i came back to the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Summon3r, on 17 January 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

i guess one could put the atlas in the ring here with its huge agility quirks, atlas with agility quirks is a little odd no? especially considering how awful the the direpuppy moves. anyhow im not interested in the clan vs IS debate anymore just along for robot shooting since i came back to the game.

Well, did you see Atlases at all prior to the balance pass? Not really, because they weren't very good. So it kind of makes sense. For the first time in a long time Atlases are good at something, and that is fine with me.

Frankly, I was messing around in private lobbies, and I didn't have too many issues neutering an Atlas with a dakka Dire before it could get too close. But, if I came around the corner against one, I'd be screwed.

Different strengths and weaknesses... Dires can put significantly more damage down range, but are sluggish. An Atlas is (finally) the brawler king it should be.

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Ultimatum was wrong...

I was wrong on a number of things (I was playing the game for a total of 4 months as of that thread), but my main position on the VTR-DS vs. TBR not being a clear winner was accurate for that meta.

The PPC nerfs and meta-shift to lasers changed a lot of things.


Good memory on your part (or you are a stalker... )

[Summon3r]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Well, did you see Atlases at all prior to the balance pass? Not really, because they weren't very good. So it kind of makes sense. For the first time in a long time Atlases are good at something, and that is fine with me.

Frankly, I was messing around in private lobbies, and I didn't have too many issues neutering an Atlas with a dakka Dire before it could get too close. But, if I came around the corner against one, I'd be screwed.

Different strengths and weaknesses... Dires can put significantly more damage down range, but are sluggish. An Atlas is (finally) the brawler king it should be.

well we could go around in circles for ever as it seems the community still is...... tbh things were far more fun pre-clan imho anyway. oh and can i has stock pls?

[Etgfrog]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

You know...this is such a hilariously bad comment. I've played clan mechs and I've still put out plenty of damage after losing a side torso in them. On average when I've lost a side torso I'll still do an extra 100 damage with the mech. That is including the times when I've died shortly after and the times I've continued to fight the rest of the match. But as for the expected callout of why I'm relevant, I'm just some guy who will bring an urbanmech into cw and pull 400 damage.