190 replies to this topic

[Wraith31]

Kristian Radoulov, on 17 January 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

So since I'm not at all impressive, you'll roll me right? SJR players like Uncle Russ would roll me too, right?

SJR does not have a pilot named Uncle Russ on their active roster.

If you fought someone who has been away from the game forever and came back, that says a whole bunch about where your standards are.

As for baiting me into a 1v1, that will never happen. I would not waste my time.

[Deathlike]

I'm just here for the extra salt on the universe's supply of popcorn.

How does one not run Seismic Wallhack and also not notice their back CT paper torso start to glow?

I still love the superior King Crab vs inferior Dire Wolf argument (hilarious and wrong), so good luck with that.

It's OK to admit when you're wrong, but it's more hilarious when you double down on a bad position.

Please, continue on.

[Lykaon]

Gyrok, on 16 January 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

So...

After the patch has had time to marinade for a while, it is time to discuss the insane structure quirks.

The WHR has enough structure quirks to be a 100 ton mech with doubled armor.

So the warhammer has umm let's see....

Head 15 structure with 36 armor
C Torso 62 structure with 248 armor
R/L torso 42 structure with 168 armor
R/L arm 42 structure with 136 armor
R/L leg 42 structure with 164 armor

Or is it

WHM 6R

Head 15 structure 18 armor
C Torso 66 structure 88 armor
R/L torso 46 structure 60 armor
R/L arm 36 structure 44 armor
R/L leg 46 structure 60 armor

+20% ballistic velocity
+5 ballistic cooldown
-10% energy heat
+50% PPC velocity
-5 PPC heat

Seems like it's not as bad as that but it's offense is PPC centric making a terrible weapon useable.I guess you could slap on some ACs but why do it on this chassis? There are better ballistic chassis.


The thing is I really think that maybe structure quirking is a good choice while weapon quirking is a poor choice.

My thoughts on general balance between clan tech and Inner Sphere tech.

Clan mechs should be faster and more agile. They get this with the Clan XLs so perhaps a slight ballance pass on torso and arm agility as well as accel decel rates to get the clan mechs feeling "sporty" in handling.

Clan tech weapons should retain the range advantage where it exists on the weapon basic stats. Remove the range quirking from most I.S. mechs.

Clan tech weapons should retain the damage levels without being quirked with extremely long laser burn durations or ER -PPC splash mechanics.

How do we balance these longer ranged harder hitting weapons? Heat levels and cooldowns. Clan mechs should possess painfully effective alpha strikes that build high heat and require sufficent cooldown of weapon fire rates to prevent abuse.With this mechanic the clan mechs can use their superior mobility to get in hit and fade to cool down. The big boys like the direwolf trade this mobility for absurd firepower with over 50 tons of pod space for un-nerfed clan weapons.

The Clan style of warfare is to hit hard hit fast and do it all efficently.

Clan mechs do not get structure or armor quirking (unless it's needed to make a mech playable that otherwise would have suicidal hitboxes ...Naga anyone? )

Inner sphere mechs do get liberal structure quirking to enhance durrability. This is the counter to the clan's higher damage values and range advantages.The I.S. mechs need the tankyness to weather the storm to close in and fight at I.S. ranges.

Most weapon quirks should be removed. Especially specific weapon quirking (I prefer energy cooldown -5 to seeing medium pulse laser cooldown -10 or both together...yeeesh)

Weapon quirks should be reserved for enhancing native builds that retain limited weapons. IE. Awesome 8Q should get PPC quirks,Catapult 1c 1a and 4c get LRM quirks Hunchback 3G AC 20 quirking etc. The idea is encourage the mech's designed role with that chassis. by quirking to enhance the design's native role. (Clan Omni mechs do not have a native role due to being Omnimechs but maybe a similar thing should be implimented for clan Battlemechs like the IIc mechs)

Edited by Lykaon, 17 January 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

That was so enfuriating. A good portion of drops would be day time hours when I was working, and I would be on people from work about getting ready, and then they managed to almost miss the match because incompetent/did not care/whatever.

It seriously used to piss me off to no end.

No joke; besides not feeling fully challenged, the biggest turn off of sparring with Delta was that it took up to 45 minutes for you guys to sort your **** out. We just couldn't even..... We'd show up, ready to go, organized, on time... and... wait. Do you have any idea how hard it is to herd (Nova) Cats, let alone keep them waiting?

[Wraith31]

oldradagast, on 17 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Indeed. And then the same morons like that clown who posted all the venom you responded too wonder why people aren't lining up to join units...

There are lots of morons in this thread, without specifics, I cannot tell who you are talking about.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

So...let me see if I have this accurate:

I am memorable because people generally cry salty tears over what I have to say.

Bishop is most memorable (if memorable at all), for being a forum warrior who talks too much.

Kristian is most memorable for...?

What?

Telling everyone to "fitemem8!"

You see...this kind of stuff is why no one comes here to try to discuss something useful. Because twits like you guys try to turn this into a pissing contest.

Plenty of useful discussions to be found on these forums, just seldom so they involve you.

It becomes a pissing contest because of you, and your unwillingness to actually have a discussion.

Heck the only reason you ever even came to my attention was you making some epeen, pissing match comment on some post because I dared to say I "gasp", didn't know the great Gyrok from Adam.

And in match?; I really still don't. I've seen you have OK matches, good matches and bad ones. Just like me.

As for your unit? I have have never seen them dominate anyone. I've rarely seen them win. On most of my encounters with them, I can't say they left much an impression. And what little they have was mostly after watching you and Areseye Kerensky having a forum epeen match.

So yeah, whatever. As for myself? Can't say I've ever given a rip what people think of me, out if they think of me at all.

I'll keep doing what I have, doing whatever I can to try to actually influence Russ to improve the game, and leave the petty posturing and laughable QQ here to you

[Wraith31]

Lykaon, on 17 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

So the warhammer has umm let's see....

Head 15 structure with 36 armor
C Torso 62 structure with 248 armor
R/L torso 42 structure with 168 armor
R/L arm 42 structure with 136 armor
R/L leg 42 structure with 164 armor

Or is it

WHM 6R

Head 15 structure 18 armor
C Torso 66 structure 88 armor
R/L torso 46 structure 60 armor
R/L arm 36 structure 44 armor
R/L leg 46 structure 60 armor

+20% ballistic velocity
+5 ballistic cooldown
-10% energy heat
+50% PPC velocity
-5 PPC heat

Seems like it's not as bad as that but it's offense is PPC centric making a terrible weapon useable.I guess you could slap on some ACs but why do it on this chassis? There are better ballistic chassis.


The thing is I really think that maybe structure quirking is a good choice while weapon quirking is a poor choice.

My thoughts on general balance between clan tech and Inner Sphere tech.

Clan mechs should be faster and more agile. They get this with the Clan XLs so perhaps a slight ballance pass on torso and arm agility as well as accel decel rates to get the clan mechs feeling "sporty" in handling.

Clan tech weapons should retain the range advantage where it exists on the weapon basic stats. Remove the range quirking from most I.S. mechs.

Clan tech weapons should retain the damage levels without being quirked with extremely long laser burn durations or ER -PPC splash mechanics.

How do we balance these longer ranged harder hitting weapons? Heat levels and cooldowns. Clan mechs should possess painfully effective alpha strikes that build high heat and require sufficent cooldown of weapon fire rates to prevent abuse.With this mechanic the clan mechs can use their superior mobility to get in hit and fade to cool down. The big boys like the direwolf trade this mobility for absurd firepower with over 50 tons of pod space for un-nerfed clan weapons.

The Clan style of warfare is to hit hard hit fast and do it all efficently.

Clan mechs do not get structure or armor quirking (unless it's needed to make a mech playable that otherwise would have suicidal hitboxes ...Naga anyone? )

Inner sphere mechs do get liberal structure quirking to enhance durrability. This is the counter to the clan's higher damage values and range advantages.The I.S. mechs need the tankyness to weather the storm to close in and fight at I.S. ranges.

Most weapon quirks should be removed. Especially specific weapon quirking (I prefer energy cooldown -5 to seeing medium pulse laser cooldown -10 or both together...yeeesh)

Weapon quirks should be reserved for enhancing native builds that retain limited weapons. IE. Awesome 8Q should get PPC quirks,Catapult 1c 1a and 4c get LRM quirks Hunchback 3G AC 20 quirking etc. The idea is encourage the mech's designed role with that chassis. by quirking to enhance the design's native role. (Clan Omni mechs do not have a native role due to being Omnimechs but maybe a similar thing should be implimented for clan Battlemechs like the IIc mechs)

I actually like a lot of this...good post.

[Y E O N N E]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

What responses to choose from would those be? Pariah had a nice post, and I saw maybe one more.

Everyone else comes in here frothing at the mouth about Gyrok this or that...

There was actually a a good conversation needing to happen, instead all we got are epeens everywhere trash talking and challenging anyone to 1v1 them.

I have an idea...how about Kristian and Bishop 1v1 and stream it!

And you come in here frothing about people frothing at Gyrok.

First, Gyrok could have and should have posted in the umpteen other threads going on about structure. Yes, some say "Blackjack" in the title but they all moved on to structure buffs in general. He has a tendency to start threads when discussions are already in progress on the same topic. That by itself is irritating. Starting another thread on the same topic just says one of two things: the first is "I'm too lazy to find and read what has already been said" and the second is "my voice deserves to be heard more than everybody else's."

Second, Xetellian made a good point about IS XLs, Brandarr Gunnarson was doing alright discussing the role he thinks quirks should play with regard to this subject, Allistair and Gas were doing fine pointing out deficiencies in arguments claiming lighter 'Mech X has the same hit-points as heavier 'Mech Y. Khobai, too. There was plenty of potential for discussion and he flat-out ignored it except Khobai's post, which he merely acknowledged.

Finally, I'm just pointing out that Gyrok does have an earned reputation for crying wolf, no pun intended. Every time Clans have been touched, including when they first entered the game and were at their most powerful, he was saying they weren't good enough. He demanded everybody show him the math proving they were better than IS 'Mechs, and many of us did...and he didn't even acknowledge the posts. Instead, he just kept arguing with the people who were lashing out from passion and not with facts.

That's why nobody takes his threads seriously. Even he doesn't take his threads seriously.

[Wraith31]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

So yeah, whatever. As for myself? Can't say I've ever given a rip what people think of me, out if they think of me at all.

You say that, and then you turn right around and try to save face at every angle...which is it?

You know, you and Gyrok are not that different, honestly.

I mean, you are full of hot air about everything, while he is just on about Clans specifically.

Clearly he doesn't care what all of you think because he still comes here to post to try to make the game better. You claim you are posting to try to make the game better.

I mean, are you not both trying to accomplish a fun game that you both want to play? The vision might be different, but you're both barking up the same tree.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Finally, I'm just pointing out that Gyrok does have an earned reputation for crying wolf, no pun intended. Every time Clans have been touched, including when they first entered the game and were at their most powerful, he was saying they weren't good enough. He demanded everybody show him the math proving they were better than IS 'Mechs, and many of us did...and he didn't even acknowledge the posts. Instead, he just kept arguing with the people who were lashing out from passion and not with facts.

That's why nobody takes his threads seriously. Even he doesn't take his threads seriously.

Do you have a link to some of the posts about Clans you are citing? It seems lots of people in here keep talking about this, I am just curious because I never read them.

[Pariah Devalis]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

You know, you and Gyrok are not that different, honestly.

Frankly, I want to see Gyrok and Johnny Z locked into a room for several hours. I'm wondering if they'd either cancel one another out or cause an earth shattering explosion.

Hey. I do not want to pick sides, here, but that would be an epic confrontation to watch.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 January 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Wraith31]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

Frankly, I want to see Gyrok and Johnny Z locked into a room for several hours. I'm wondering if they'd either cancel one another out or cause an earth shattering explosion.

Just guessing, but I bet money 2 men enter, 1 man leaves...

[Gyrok]

Lykaon, on 17 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

So the warhammer has umm let's see....

Head 15 structure with 36 armor
C Torso 62 structure with 248 armor
R/L torso 42 structure with 168 armor
R/L arm 42 structure with 136 armor
R/L leg 42 structure with 164 armor

Or is it

WHM 6R

Head 15 structure 18 armor
C Torso 66 structure 88 armor
R/L torso 46 structure 60 armor
R/L arm 36 structure 44 armor
R/L leg 46 structure 60 armor

+20% ballistic velocity
+5 ballistic cooldown
-10% energy heat
+50% PPC velocity
-5 PPC heat

Seems like it's not as bad as that but it's offense is PPC centric making a terrible weapon useable.I guess you could slap on some ACs but why do it on this chassis? There are better ballistic chassis.


The thing is I really think that maybe structure quirking is a good choice while weapon quirking is a poor choice.

My thoughts on general balance between clan tech and Inner Sphere tech.

Clan mechs should be faster and more agile. They get this with the Clan XLs so perhaps a slight ballance pass on torso and arm agility as well as accel decel rates to get the clan mechs feeling "sporty" in handling.

Clan tech weapons should retain the range advantage where it exists on the weapon basic stats. Remove the range quirking from most I.S. mechs.

Clan tech weapons should retain the damage levels without being quirked with extremely long laser burn durations or ER -PPC splash mechanics.

How do we balance these longer ranged harder hitting weapons? Heat levels and cooldowns. Clan mechs should possess painfully effective alpha strikes that build high heat and require sufficent cooldown of weapon fire rates to prevent abuse.With this mechanic the clan mechs can use their superior mobility to get in hit and fade to cool down. The big boys like the direwolf trade this mobility for absurd firepower with over 50 tons of pod space for un-nerfed clan weapons.

The Clan style of warfare is to hit hard hit fast and do it all efficently.

Clan mechs do not get structure or armor quirking (unless it's needed to make a mech playable that otherwise would have suicidal hitboxes ...Naga anyone? )

Inner sphere mechs do get liberal structure quirking to enhance durrability. This is the counter to the clan's higher damage values and range advantages.The I.S. mechs need the tankyness to weather the storm to close in and fight at I.S. ranges.

Most weapon quirks should be removed. Especially specific weapon quirking (I prefer energy cooldown -5 to seeing medium pulse laser cooldown -10 or both together...yeeesh)

Weapon quirks should be reserved for enhancing native builds that retain limited weapons. IE. Awesome 8Q should get PPC quirks,Catapult 1c 1a and 4c get LRM quirks Hunchback 3G AC 20 quirking etc. The idea is encourage the mech's designed role with that chassis. by quirking to enhance the design's native role. (Clan Omni mechs do not have a native role due to being Omnimechs but maybe a similar thing should be implimented for clan Battlemechs like the IIc mechs)

This is actually a good post.

I like a lot of what you are saying...and this is my point about different but equal.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

No joke; besides not feeling fully challenged, the biggest turn off of sparring with Delta was that it took up to 45 minutes for you guys to sort your **** out. We just couldn't even..... We'd show up, ready to go, organized, on time... and... wait. Do you have any idea how hard it is to herd (Nova) Cats, let alone keep them waiting?

the first PGI tourney, the drop was an odd time and day for me...so I put the SaKhan at the time in charge...

They literally end up dropping against RJF 2 minutes to spare before...no prep drop...no tonnage configuring...beyond hitting the deck weight with whatever...

I can imagine herding nova cats, you guys all have that whole LT catnip stash going on...

Not that herding wolves was much better...any time a squirrel, jerky strip, bouncy ball, -anything at all- popped by you had to regather...

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

Frankly, I want to see Gyrok and Johnny Z locked into a room for several hours. I'm wondering if they'd either cancel one another out or cause an earth shattering explosion.

Hey. I do not want to pick sides, here, but that would be an epic confrontation to watch.

I have JohnnyZ on ignore because if I took him off...I would literally have to figure out how to smash his head through internet...

That guy is as dense as a neutron star...

[oldradagast]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

There are lots of morons in this thread, without specifics, I cannot tell who you are talking about.

True. I just laugh as various try-hards spew venom, post shame videos, and otherwise try to prove who's epeen is bigger. And then we get endless whining from the same types about why so many people aren't interested in joining teams. I can't imagine why, what with the noble behavior and good sportsmanship demonstrated on this thread among so many others... lol...

Edited by oldradagast, 17 January 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Do you have a link to some of the posts about Clans you are citing? It seems lots of people in here keep talking about this, I am just curious because I never read them.

I have some threads for you:


This one has some moderately humorous statements in it. I'm assuming you remember the context for what the meta was in 2014. It's just funny when his statement is that IS shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it, too, in an environment where Clan 'Mechs were getting exactly that.

Here's the one where he claims the CTF is competitive with the TBR due to twist speed and tries to substantiate it with builds that are super fragile or super slow. What was that about having cake and eating it, too? Actually, that whole thread is interesting because Bishop was wrong, McGral18 was wrong, Ultimatum was wrong, and Roland was right. Almost everybody changed their tune only a few months later, and the ridiculously powerful laser-vomit meta that persists to this day hadn't even settled in yet. Hooray hind-sight! I could have sworn I also replied to him showing how and why the TBR is better on this topic after his demands for hard evidence (which Adiuvo provided...funny watching people try to argue with a player from one of the top two competitive units at the height of their game), breaking down the builds, but maybe that was in a different thread. It was one of my earliest posts. It's hard to search when post history cuts off for dates earlier than January 2015.

And then there's this kind of inflammatory crap only a few threads down right now:

Gyrok, on 16 January 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

50% velocity is not enough?

10% energy heat reduction + 5% PPC heat reduction is not enough?

IS OP, PGI PLZ NERF.

Talk about lack of context for the quirks!

I've already spent way more time on this than I should have, so, you can find more if you want.

For my part, I've reasoned with Gyrok before. We don't see eye to eye, but I've not actually attacked him over it. We both have backgrounds in game development and basically agree to disagree.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 January 2016 - 05:36 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

I have some threads for you:


This one has some moderately humorous statements in it. I'm assuming you remember the context for what the meta was in 2014. It's just funny when his statement is that IS shouldn't be able to have their cake and eat it, too, in an environment where Clan 'Mechs were getting exactly that.

Here's the one where he claims the CTF is competitive with the TBR due to twist speed and tries to substantiate it with builds that are super fragile or super slow. What was that about having cake and eating it, too? Actually, that whole thread is interesting because Bishop was wrong, McGral18 was wrong, Ultimatum was wrong, and Roland was right. Almost everybody changed their tune only a few months later, and the ridiculously powerful laser-vomit meta that persists to this day hadn't even settled in yet. Hooray hind-sight! I could have sworn I also replied to him showing how and why the TBR is better on this topic after his demands for hard evidence (which Adiuvo provided...funny watching people try to argue with a player from one of the top two competitive units at the height of their game), breaking down the builds, but maybe that was in a different thread. It was one of my earliest posts. It's hard to search when post history cuts off for dates earlier than January 2015.

I've already spent way more time on this than I should have, so, you can find more if you want.

For my part, I've reasoned with Gyrok before. We don't see eye to eye, but I've not actually attacked him over it. We both have backgrounds in game development and basically agree to disagree.

Me wrong? Had happened from time to time, lol. Now I gotta read it for old times sake.

[Khobai]

Quote

Hooray hind-sight!

To be fair the Cataphract used to be a lot better before they nerfed PPCs and Gauss.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

Me wrong? Had happened from time to time, lol. Now I gotta read it for old times sake.

It's actually interesting to watch how people went from "TBR is fine because locked slots" to "goddamn this thing is OP."

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

To be fair the Cataphract used to be a lot better before they nerfed PPCs and Gauss.

Even still, it was obsoleted over night. Adiuvo's posts hint as much. It only lingered on because the comp rules normally forbade the use of 'Mechs behind a non-MC paywall.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

To be fair the Cataphract used to be a lot better before they nerfed PPCs and Gauss.

and before poptarting was totally nerfed.

[Gas Guzzler]

@Wraith

Still waiting for your side torso comment explanation. Are you trying to say that the Warhammer has more side torso hitpoints than an unquirked Atlas does?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

@Wraith

Still waiting for your side torso comment explanation. Are you trying to say that the Warhammer has more side torso hitpoints than an unquirked Atlas does?

126 on the AS7-D before it's quirks, and of course, it has 28 additional structure on top of that for 154.
86 on Warhammer-6R AFTER Quirks.

WHM-6R has the heaviest structure buffs of the chassis.

So 154 vs 86... only nearly twice as much as the WHM? Even if only comparing the unquirked Atlas (which seems a silly thing to do) it still has 1.5x as many ST HP as the WHM.

*shrugs*

Next pointless "point"?