190 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

To be fair, as long as Quirks are used to balance one Techline against the other there is no discussion about durability Quirks without discussion about Techline.

Moreover, as the IS durability Quirks are directly related to the fragility of IS XL engines, that is really the core issue.

[charov]

I know Russ doesn't want any future tech, but can't we just give light fusion engines to IS? They weight 75% of standard engines and a mech with it doesn't die losing a ST. It could be easily balanced by not giving any penalty due to the lost of a ST, while CXL (lighter) get slow & heat penalty.

Balancing could be SO much EASIER with those engines!

You guys with Twitter should ask him about that.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

LFEs are completely unnecessary and redundant Tech.

If IS XL engines are properly addressed, we will never need them.

As the engines stand now, LFEs would not provide a viable fix, even if implemented. They would still be inferior to Clan XL and thus not fix the over-Quirk situation.

Ultimately, all they would do would provide a "less bad" third option to IS 'Mechs in addition to the two "bad" options currently available.

Unfortunately, "less bad" is still not "good"!

[Pariah Devalis]

Hate or disagree with Gyrok all you want guys, but objectively?

As a 100% Clan pilot (who cannot stand the sight of that nasty yellow brown interior of IS mechs) I am all for IS having durable mechs. I love structure or armor quirks. I LOVE them. I think it's a great solution to differentiate IS and Clan mechs, whereby IS mechs are harder to break but Clan mechs can survive being broken. It's a nice way to address the survivability the CXL gives.

However, only within reason. By the math, the 45-ton BJ-1X has the same health as a 65-ton mech. A 55-ton mech? Sure, but it's skipping an entire weight class on health, here. IMO, structure quirks should only increase the durability of a given mech by no more then 10-tons of effective mech. If by the math the Warhammer is as durable as an unquirked 100-ton mech, that's a 30-ton difference, there! That's bloody insane!

At the same token, if you heap defensive quirks on then don't slap on crazy weapon or heat quirks, too. That is double dipping. Any weapon quirk that gives more than 25% bonus (either alone or combined with related quirks) is overkill, regardless of IS or Clan design. It's a sign of bad weapon balance, not bad mech balance, and artificially limits what you will put on a given mech. Either you use the god-tier quirks by using their appropriate weapons, or hamstring yourself by not playing to the mech's quirked in strengths.

When you slap on both, it does not take much in the way of critical thinking skills to see that maybe, possibly, they went too far. Even more so, quirks were originally intended to bring underperforming mechs up to a higher tier of performance. Tell me, then, why any new mech should be receiving quirks (outside of thematic mild quirks, such as IS durability ones - and only within reason!), when it has not even had a chance to see where it would end up on the tier spectrum? It directly interferes with the entire concept of quirking!

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 January 2016 - 05:13 AM.

[charov]

Except for the fact that IS ST quirks are here to make XL more viable. With LFEs you have no drawbacks for the lost of a ST and way more tonnage available and we can remove all or at least the 70% of the current structure quirks.

"less bad" != "different".

[Pariah Devalis]

red devil2, on 17 January 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

Except for the fact that IS ST quirks are here to make XL more viable. With LFEs you have no drawbacks for the lost of a ST and way more tonnage available and we can remove all or at least the 70% of the current structure quirks.

"less bad" != "different".

Those new engine types are also heavier than regular XL. You won't be making up that weight difference with them. It is no more "less bad" than extra durable torsos on IS mechs. In my opinion, of course.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 January 2016 - 05:42 AM.

[Wraith31]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 January 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

Atlas CT Armor + Structure = 186 (no quirks)
WHR CT Armor + Structure = 154 (with quirks)

So yeah, no.



The BJ should be toned down a bit. TDR is fine. Most don't even have CT quirks, only ST.



Could you sensationalize this any more? WOW someone's PPCs might hit me accurately, that's like 20 damage! Oh noes!

You give him a lot of grief...but he has a point about most of the rest of the mech, specifically side torsos.

PPCs are also pinpoint single projectile 10 damage without ammo restriction, and you get all that for less than what an AC5 weighs. Standard PPCs are still the strongest of the lot in terms of PPCs. If Clan PPCs were so great, why does no one ever see them? IS PPCs are quirked up strong on a lot of mechs, which is the only reason you see those.

[Wraith31]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Hate or disagree with Gyrok all you want guys, but objectively?

As a 100% Clan pilot (who cannot stand the sight of that nasty yellow brown interior of IS mechs) I am all for IS having durable mechs. I love structure or armor quirks. I LOVE them. I think it's a great solution to differentiate IS and Clan mechs, whereby IS mechs are harder to break but Clan mechs can survive being broken. It's a nice way to address the survivability the CXL gives.

However, only within reason. By the math, the 45-ton BJ-1X has the same health as a 65-ton mech. A 55-ton mech? Sure, but it's skipping an entire weight class on health, here. IMO, structure quirks should only increase the durability of a given mech by no more then 10-tons of effective mech. If by the math the Warhammer is as durable as an unquirked 100-ton mech, that's a 30-ton difference, there! That's bloody insane!

At the same token, if you heap defensive quirks on then don't slap on crazy weapon or heat quirks, too. That is double dipping. Any weapon quirk that gives more than 25% bonus (either alone or combined with related quirks) is overkill, regardless of IS or Clan design. It's a sign of bad weapon balance, not bad mech balance, and artificially limits what you will put on a given mech. Either you use the god-tier quirks by using their appropriate weapons, or hamstring yourself by not playing to the mech's quirked in strengths.

When you slap on both, it does not take much in the way of critical thinking skills to see that maybe, possibly, they went too far. Even more so, quirks were originally intended to bring underperforming mechs up to a higher tier of performance. Tell me, then, why any new mech should be receiving quirks (outside of thematic mild quirks, such as IS durability ones - and only within reason!), when it has not even had a chance to see where it would end up on the tier spectrum? It directly interferes with the entire concept of quirking!

I agree with all of this.

In fact, I would also point out that people cried foul when clan mechs came out with quirks...I mean, people even raised an uproar about the stance height on the Cauldron Born, before anyone had even seen it in game.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except for the fact that IS ST quirks are here to make XL more viable. With LFEs you have no drawbacks for the lost of a ST and way more tonnage available and we can remove all or at least the 70% of the current structure quirks.

"less bad" != "different".

The correct way to make ISXL less bad wouldve been to just make ISXL survive side torso destruction.

The problem with structure quirks is twofold. First, quirks shouldnt be used for balance, because its not the purpose of quirks. The purpose of quirks is to make similar mechs different and help underpowered mechs. Second, structure quirks uncharacteristically increase the survivability of IS mechs to the point where the game just becomes lopsided and unbalanced.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 08:09 AM.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

The correct way to make ISXL less bad wouldve been to just make ISXL survive side torso destruction.

The problem with structure quirks is twofold. First, quirks shouldnt be used for balance, because its not the purpose of quirks. The purpose of quirks is to make similar mechs different and help underpowered mechs. Second, structure quirks uncharacteristically increase the survivability of IS mechs to the point where the game just becomes lopsided and unbalanced.

At least we are finally getting discussions

[Sorbic]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

You give him a lot of grief...but he has a point about most of the rest of the mech, specifically side torsos.

PPCs are also pinpoint single projectile 10 damage without ammo restriction, and you get all that for less than what an AC5 weighs. Standard PPCs are still the strongest of the lot in terms of PPCs. If Clan PPCs were so great, why does no one ever see them? IS PPCs are quirked up strong on a lot of mechs, which is the only reason you see those.

Yeah but you're only seeing those because people often see PPC's as the only viable option for that variant since most of the quirk load was blown on PPCs and not running them leaves you gimped. Sure PPC's don't have an ammo restriction but they still suck and HR is a joke. Plus, as we all know, standard PPC's have a very big weakness. So long as there aren't overkill heat gen/cool down quirks then velocity doesn't mean a lot.

[The Iron Chancellor]

[Bishop Steiner]

lolololol... Watching the CO of what's largely regarded as the worst of the Clan Units and Kristian spar is far more entertaining than listening to Impy beg and whine for his MadCat mkII.......

More!!! More I say!!!

[Bishop Steiner]

MOAR POPCORN 4 THE POPCORN GOD!!!!

[Kristian Radoulov]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I spent a year kind of trying to get along with him, and have nothing against him, as a person....

but the constant "IS is moar powerful" than Clan whining over the most ridiculous of claims, along with the consistent bad play of Delta when encountered just finally got to be enough is enough, ya know?

All I can figure is that they used the initially very OP nature of Clan Tech to compensate for being bad when CW first rolled out, and as that got chipped away and they got more exposed, desperation crept in?

Near as I can figure.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

lolololol... Watching the CO of what's largely regarded as the worst of the Clan Units and Kristian spar is far more entertaining than listening to Impy beg and whine for his MadCat mkII.......

More!!! More I say!!!

The worst of the Clan Units?

Are you on drugs?

CWDG is far from the worst clan unit in the game.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I spent a year kind of trying to get along with him, and have nothing against him, as a person....

but the constant "IS is moar powerful" than Clan whining over the most ridiculous of claims, along with the consistent bad play of Delta when encountered just finally got to be enough is enough, ya know?

All I can figure is that they used the initially very OP nature of Clan Tech to compensate for being bad when CW first rolled out, and as that got chipped away and they got more exposed, desperation crept in?

Bishop...

Bad play of Delta when encountered?

We never lost to your unit...in any encounter I can ever recall...including CW.

In fact, in the Tukayyid events we participated in...we carried better than 70% win rate and placed in the top 3-4 of Clan Wolf by # of wins, and top 3 by win % in each event.

If you think me mistaken, the records are out there...you can check them.

EDIT: Just FYI, most of reddit agrees that IS mechs are OP currently as well...they just cannot be arsed to bother with the echo chamber that is the MWO forums.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 January 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

EDIT: Just FYI, most of reddit agrees that IS mechs are OP currently as well...they just cannot be arsed to bother with the echo chamber that is the MWO forums.

Naw nude, it is more than they think 1 or 2 mechs are a bit out of line, not that "IS OP" because Clans still have the better things without quirks.

Also, when did you listen to reddit? I'm pretty sure most of reddit agreed Clans were OP before this latest re-quirkening and that certainly didn't stop you from claiming otherwise for a year plus.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[Jman5]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

The worst of the Clan Units?

Are you on drugs?

CWDG is far from the worst clan unit in the game.

Is CWDG even an active unit at this point? I only ask because I have only seen two of your members in the entire month of January and you all were completely absent on the Tukayyid 2 unit board. I mean the barrier for entry was pretty low. One of the wolf units got it with just 4 active members.

Edited by Jman5, 17 January 2016 - 01:55 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

The worst of the Clan Units?

Are you on drugs?

CWDG is far from the worst clan unit in the game.

Well, in fairness my encounters with Tau hasn't inspired me any either... though it seems that once you take IS mercs out of the equation Clan WOlf is usually an afterthought.....