190 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Bishop...

Bad play of Delta when encountered?

We never lost to your unit...in any encounter I can ever recall...including CW.

In fact, in the Tukayyid events we participated in...we carried better than 70% win rate and placed in the top 3-4 of Clan Wolf by # of wins, and top 3 by win % in each event.

If you think me mistaken, the records are out there...you can check them.

EDIT: Just FYI, most of reddit agrees that IS mechs are OP currently as well...they just cannot be arsed to bother with the echo chamber that is the MWO forums.

Never seen CGBI blink when encountering CWDG. On my IS account, I haven't been part of any active unit at any point during CW, and have always been a filler member on drops... and in CW have never lost of CWDG I've been in PUG CW drops where we beat DG.. Seldom have lost to any Wolves, truth to tell, that weren't IS Mercs in Wolf's clothes.

Don't know if Golden Keshik or Alpha galaxy are still doing anything, haven't really encountered them of late either. But both were always miles ahead of DG. GCGB, CGBI, Any decent Falcon unit, Steel Jags, can't say any really pay you any heed.

Keep beating that drum about how great DG is, and pretty much every other real clan unit will keep snickering into their palms.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Naw nude, it is more than they think 1 or 2 mechs are a bit out of line, not that "IS OP" because Clans still have the better things without quirks.

Also, when did you listen to reddit? I'm pretty sure most of reddit agreed Clans were OP before this latest re-quirkening and that certainly didn't stop you from claiming otherwise for a year plus.

Yeah, well in fairness, it's the closest it's ever been, but when you get used to being able to club baby seals, actualyl dealing with any opponent that puts up a fight is apparently a traumatic experience.

The funny part, is pretty much since the very first nerf the Clans received poor lil Gyrok and his DG guys have been on the forums crying about IS OP, etc.

That's why I had to stop taking him seriously. I tried to stay civil, but finally just got to the point of being too much. IDK...I try to stay civil with Summoner, but the rest of his unit I just feel sorry for since they seem to actually believe the guy.

[Y E O N N E]

I remember the claims saying the Cataphract as good as the Timberwolf.

Good times.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Hate or disagree with Gyrok all you want guys, but objectively?

As a 100% Clan pilot (who cannot stand the sight of that nasty yellow brown interior of IS mechs) I am all for IS having durable mechs. I love structure or armor quirks. I LOVE them. I think it's a great solution to differentiate IS and Clan mechs, whereby IS mechs are harder to break but Clan mechs can survive being broken. It's a nice way to address the survivability the CXL gives.

However, only within reason. By the math, the 45-ton BJ-1X has the same health as a 65-ton mech. A 55-ton mech? Sure, but it's skipping an entire weight class on health, here. IMO, structure quirks should only increase the durability of a given mech by no more then 10-tons of effective mech. If by the math the Warhammer is as durable as an unquirked 100-ton mech, that's a 30-ton difference, there! That's bloody insane!

At the same token, if you heap defensive quirks on then don't slap on crazy weapon or heat quirks, too. That is double dipping. Any weapon quirk that gives more than 25% bonus (either alone or combined with related quirks) is overkill, regardless of IS or Clan design. It's a sign of bad weapon balance, not bad mech balance, and artificially limits what you will put on a given mech. Either you use the god-tier quirks by using their appropriate weapons, or hamstring yourself by not playing to the mech's quirked in strengths.

When you slap on both, it does not take much in the way of critical thinking skills to see that maybe, possibly, they went too far. Even more so, quirks were originally intended to bring underperforming mechs up to a higher tier of performance. Tell me, then, why any new mech should be receiving quirks (outside of thematic mild quirks, such as IS durability ones - and only within reason!), when it has not even had a chance to see where it would end up on the tier spectrum? It directly interferes with the entire concept of quirking!

Well, I debunked the Warhammer being equal to a 100-tonner already using this tool called Math:

Gas Guzzler, on 16 January 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

Atlas CT Armor + Structure = 186 (no quirks)
WHR CT Armor + Structure = 154 (with quirks)

Yes the Blackjack is a little over done on the quirks, but if you look at purely the structure numbers, its not even an outlier. The reason why it gets so many complaints is that its a small fast moving target that people have trouble focusing. Bigger mechs have huge buffs, but since it is so easy to hit them with a 50+ damage alpha, its not as noticeable or annoying.

Frankly, I think the Blackjack structure quirks should be dialed back some, because of its small size and mobility, not because the number itself is so big.

Also, regarding the Warhammer, it has some significant structure quirks, but the weapon quirks on the 6R for instance consist of 50% velocity for PPCs, and -10% energy heat gen, and -5% PPC heat gen plus some ballistic stuff. Yeah, big number for the PPC velocity, but PPCs are hardly considered competitive weapons. So it will have accurate PPCs but that is just 20 damage at once, max.

Based on the performance of similar IS heavies, we already know how they stack up against Clan tech, there is nothing magical about the Warhammer that is going to make it all of a sudden not need quirks to compete with the best the Clans have to offer (as the rest of the IS heavies do).

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 January 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[Wraith31]

So, how did we get to ad-hominem from structure quirks?

Gas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

Well, I debunked the Warhammer being equal to a 100-tonner already using this tool called Math:



Yes the Blackjack is a little over done on the quirks, but if you look at purely the structure numbers, its not even an outlier. The reason why it gets so many complaints is that its a small fast moving target that people have trouble focusing. Bigger mechs have huge buffs, but since it is so easy to hit them with a 50+ damage alpha, its not as noticeable or annoying.

Frankly, I think the Blackjack structure quirks should be dialed back some, because of its small size and mobility, not because the number itself is so big.

Also, regarding the Warhammer, it has some significant structure quirks, but the weapon quirks on the 6R for instance consist of 50% velocity for PPCs, and -10% energy heat gen, and -5% PPC heat gen plus some ballistic stuff. Yeah, big number for the PPC velocity, but PPCs are hardly considered competitive weapons. So it will have accurate PPCs but that is just 20 damage at once, max.

Based on the performance of similar IS heavies, we already know how they stack up against Clan tech, there is nothing magical about the Warhammer that is going to make it all of a sudden not need quirks to compete with the best the Clans have to offer (as the rest of the IS heavies do).

You never did discuss side torsos...

Just saying...anyone can frame an argument in their favor.

Edited by Wraith31, 17 January 2016 - 02:57 PM.

[Wraith31]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Never seen CGBI blink when encountering CWDG. On my IS account, I haven't been part of any active unit at any point during CW, and have always been a filler member on drops... and in CW have never lost of CWDG I've been in PUG CW drops where we beat DG.. Seldom have lost to any Wolves, truth to tell, that weren't IS Mercs in Wolf's clothes.

Don't know if Golden Keshik or Alpha galaxy are still doing anything, haven't really encountered them of late either. But both were always miles ahead of DG. GCGB, CGBI, Any decent Falcon unit, Steel Jags, can't say any really pay you any heed.

Keep beating that drum about how great DG is, and pretty much every other real clan unit will keep snickering into their palms.


Yeah, well in fairness, it's the closest it's ever been, but when you get used to being able to club baby seals, actualyl dealing with any opponent that puts up a fight is apparently a traumatic experience.

The funny part, is pretty much since the very first nerf the Clans received poor lil Gyrok and his DG guys have been on the forums crying about IS OP, etc.

That's why I had to stop taking him seriously. I tried to stay civil, but finally just got to the point of being too much. IDK...I try to stay civil with Summoner, but the rest of his unit I just feel sorry for since they seem to actually believe the guy.

Bishop...

I have lurked here long enough, and played enough matches to know you are full of more hot air than a balloon.

Your long winded speeches about how you are an amazing pilot and other groups suck is just fluff...and I know I have never seen you in a comp match stream at all.

Just like this Kristian guy coming in here with ad-hominem attacks. Who is he? I have never heard of him being a member of SJR, Lords/EmP, or 228th. If he is in MS, he is certainly not in a comp group. So what on earth is his claim to fame? Forum warrior like you?

I rarely see CWDG anymore...but I do know they gave HHoD 007 a run for their money in the queue, and they were pretty tight with 228th as well when the better pilots were on. When I would see them on my side in the queue, it was usually a pretty solid roll for us.

Kristian Radoulov, on 17 January 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Those videos don't exist because I 1 shot my ToP. Like I've already said, you are insane dude. Seek help.

Ad-hominem suits you well.

Who are you again, and why should anyone care what you think, either?

Edited by Wraith31, 17 January 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Naw nude, it is more than they think 1 or 2 mechs are a bit out of line, not that "IS OP" because Clans still have the better things without quirks.

Also, when did you listen to reddit? I'm pretty sure most of reddit agreed Clans were OP before this latest re-quirkening and that certainly didn't stop you from claiming otherwise for a year plus.

I always said that clans kept getting the short end of the stick, and meaningful changes would never come, just blind shots in the dark that would eventually make clans underpowered.

People simply diluted it down to whatever they wanted because they were too lazy to read what I was saying, but I was proved right in the long run.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

So, how did we get to ad-hominem from structure quirks?



You never did discuss side torsos...

Just saying...anyone can frame an argument in their favor.

What are you talking about? What about side torsos?

[Bishop Steiner]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Bishop...

I have lurked here long enough, and played enough matches to know you are full of more hot air than a balloon.

Your long winded speeches about how you are an amazing pilot and other groups suck is just fluff...and I know I have never seen you in a comp match stream at all.

Just like this Kristian guy coming in here with ad-hominem attacks. Who is he? I have never heard of him being a member of SJR, Lords/EmP, or 228th. If he is in MS, he is certainly not in a comp group. So what on earth is his claim to fame? Forum warrior like you?

I rarely see CWDG anymore...but I do know they gave HHoD 007 a run for their money in the queue, and they were pretty tight with 228th as well when the better pilots were on. When I would see them on my side in the queue, it was usually a pretty solid roll for us.



Ad-hominem suits you well.

Who are you again, and why should anyone care what you think, either?

Apparently a lurker with poor reading comprehension, since I have never, not once, claimed to be a great pilot.

I have claimed to be better than what I've seen our of CWDG, but that's because of how bad they've been, not how good I've been.

Pretty funny to see two guys afraid to post their tier claiming to be great though.

As for you? I don't even recognize you at all which tells me all I need to know about you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 January 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

CWDG usually had their act together in CW in my experience, or at least they were capable of consistently digging themselves out of a hole, but left much to be desired in Group Queue. That could be because they are bringing unfamiliar players or unfamiliar equipment but I remember that when I was with [III] we would regularly clobber CWDG in groups.

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

I always said that clans kept getting the short end of the stick, and meaningful changes would never come, just blind shots in the dark that would eventually make clans underpowered.

People simply diluted it down to whatever they wanted because they were too lazy to read what I was saying, but I was proved right in the long run.

With all due respect, dude, I vividly recall that you were trying to claim the Cataphract was as good as a Timberwolf on Clan launch. Not only that, but the big basis of your argument was coming from torso twist speed and range, which, I mean...seriously? And to compound it, you kept telling people in your thread to show you the math proving the TBR was better than the CTF and then flat-out ignoring it when it was posted (tl;dr for that was more armor, more speed, more firepower, more cooling). Come on, now!

When your definition "Clans getting the short end of the stick" is basically "Clans are not as powerful as the lore says they should be," nobody is going to do anything but roll her eyes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

What is this business about 1v1 you any time someone says something?

That guy clearly has no clue who you are...and why should he?

What have you ever done in MWO that was memorable?

From someone only considered memorable for crying about IS OP, this is pretty rich.....

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Apparently a Luther with poor reading comprehension, since I have never, not once, claimed to be a great pilot.

I have claimed to be better than what I've seen our of CWDG, but that's because of how bad they've been, not how good I've been.

Pretty funny to see two guys afraid to post their tier claiming to be great though.

As for you? I don't even recognize you at all which tells me all I need to know about you.

You know...I never claimed to be "great", I did claim to be good.

CWDG as a unit was very good...at the peak of CWDG...I did not think that anybody would be an automatic loss at all. Most teams were a tough fight, and we gave better than we got against almost everyone.

I would say from late 2014 to mid 2015 there were likely only 3-4 units in the game we had losing records against in group queue or CW. Everybody knows the names of the units I would mention, too.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

From someone only considered memorable for crying about IS OP, this is pretty rich.....

So...let me see if I have this accurate:

I am memorable because people generally cry salty tears over what I have to say.

Bishop is most memorable (if memorable at all), for being a forum warrior who talks too much.

Kristian is most memorable for...?

What?

Telling everyone to "fitemem8!"

You see...this kind of stuff is why no one comes here to try to discuss something useful. Because twits like you guys try to turn this into a pissing contest.

[Y E O N N E]

It turns into a pissing contest because you only address the inflammatory responses or the low-hanging, non-sequitur fruit while ignoring genuine contributions that provide reasonable doubt for supporting your stance.

=|

[Wraith31]

Kristian Radoulov, on 17 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

LMAO 1v1 me and find out.

Why should I waste my time?

I watched a few videos of yours since you made such a scuffle over this.

You are not at all impressive.
PSR is an experience bar...nothing more...so you played more than some people recently. Want a cookie?

You want to see a good pilot? Watch Krivvan or Durandal...when I watch MWO streams, I try to watch those guys. PEEFsmash is back streaming again too recently. That guy is amazing.

I have never seen anyone say anything positive about you...but people cannot shut up about how good those guys are.

What does that tell you? That you put out some 1v1 threat any time someone brings you to reality I guess...

You are nobody in MWO, if that is how you try to define yourself or your life...sorry...you are just unremarkable. Which is why I asked what have you done. Maybe if there was something special you had accomplished, but you haven't. Maybe if you had left some lasting impression somewhere, but you haven't.

So, just quit trolling this thread, you're not add anything useful to discussion.

[Pariah Devalis]

Not to spill gas on the fire, but I recall dropping with/against Delta back when Clan Nova Cat Alpha Galaxy was not, ya know, catatonic. I would not say they were the worst we encountered. Granted, that bar is set pretty low. I wouldn't call Delta an elite unit, either. If I recall correctly, we didn't feel adequately challenged to really make nail biter games more often than not against Delta, though they did have a couple map specific strategies that were solid. Tactically they had some good ideas, but the follow through was often not quite good enough.

That said, when we (CNCI) decided to mess around with league play, it was burn out that got us in the end, not our ability as pilots, as we were constantly vying for 2nd or 3rd in RHOD up until our comp team, myself included, burned out on it and no longer cared enough to put our full effort into it. #SmallClanProblems As such, what we viewed as a baseline skillset might be a bit skewed, considering we were trading pretty equal blows with some of the best in the League. The funny thing is, we didn't think we were overly special at the time, but were more confused than anything that we were performing so damned well. I've never been the best judge of my own abilities, so I leave that up to others to decide, but that little background is there to show that my personal expectations of self capabilities and that of a unit or Clan as a whole might not be the most fair or accurate standards of assessment.

That said, Delta did have a couple good pilots back in the day that I felt were entertaining to spar against even one on one. As a unit, Delta had good tactical ideas, but were oddly disorganized, consistently, when it came to getting ready for drops of any sort. Groups have their unique strengths, and tactics was Deltas, but, as I said earlier, the follow through tended to be a little weak. Aside from that, so much crap went down between the various Wolf galaxies that quite frankly I would require a flow chart, a laser pointer, and probably a bottle of Aspirin to straighten things out in my head over who came from where and is with who now and why.

[Wraith31]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 January 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

It turns into a pissing contest because you only address the inflammatory responses or the low-hanging, non-sequitur fruit while ignoring genuine contributions that provide reasonable doubt for supporting your stance.

=|

What responses to choose from would those be? Pariah had a nice post, and I saw maybe one more.

Everyone else comes in here frothing at the mouth about Gyrok this or that...

There was actually a a good conversation needing to happen, instead all we got are epeens everywhere trash talking and challenging anyone to 1v1 them.

I have an idea...how about Kristian and Bishop 1v1 and stream it!

[Galenit]

IS Weapons:
8 Ballistics
10 Energy
8 Missiles
3 Suppport

Balancing 29 weapons is hard.
Balancing 29 weapons and the possible combinations of up to 10 of them is a nightmare and needs a lot of time testing and trying, because you cant work with spreadsheets with that number of combinations. Its more about about try and error if you have not balanced the 29 base weapons

Putting quirks in it potentiates the problems of balancing, i would say it makes it nearly impossible. Not balancing the possible combinations and the base weapons and putting quirks in it, its like throwing dices for the outcome.

Now put a second faction in it with the same base problems and trying to balance that has nothing more to do with game development anymore. Dont know what i can call it but guessing.

Sure you can try the trial and error way if you have a frequent test server with lots of users, but you also need someone thats able to alter xml-files every few days and not month ...

Edit:
Simple thing: They need to balance the basics and then work upwards, not the other way around.

Edited by Galenit, 17 January 2016 - 03:58 PM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Wraith31, on 17 January 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Why should I waste my time?

I watched a few videos of yours since you made such a scuffle over this.

You are not at all impressive.
PSR is an experience bar...nothing more...so you played more than some people recently. Want a cookie?

So since I'm not at all impressive, you'll roll me right? SJR players like Uncle Russ would roll me too, right?

[Gyrok]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 January 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

That said, Delta did have a couple good pilots back in the day that I felt were entertaining to spar against even one on one. As a unit, Delta had good tactical ideas, but were oddly disorganized, consistently, when it came to getting ready for drops of any sort. Groups have their unique strengths, and tactics was Deltas, but, as I said earlier, the follow through tended to be a little weak. Aside from that, so much crap went down between the various Wolf galaxies that quite frankly I would require a flow chart, a laser pointer, and probably a bottle of Aspirin to straighten things out in my head over who came from where and is with who now and why.

That was so enfuriating. A good portion of drops would be day time hours when I was working, and I would be on people from work about getting ready, and then they managed to almost miss the match because incompetent/did not care/whatever.

It seriously used to piss me off to no end.

[oldradagast]

Kristian Radoulov, on 17 January 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Do your worst; please throw everything you have at me. lmao But if I'm so bad why won't you 1v1 me? I'm done responding to you until you sack up and put your money where your mouth is coward. Until then, you are simply not worth my time.

Indeed. And then the same morons like that clown who posted all the venom you responded too wonder why people aren't lining up to join units...