142 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

I guess everyone is also forgetting the huge rate of fire nerf that was given to them as well...

[Mcgral18]

xXBagheeraXx, on 17 January 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

I guess everyone is also forgetting the huge rate of fire nerf that was given to them as well...

Only the 2 got a huge one (25%)

AC5 went from 1.5 (and 1.1 for the UAC5) to 1.67

10 remained, and 20 remained, did they not?

[Wintersdark]

Yosharian, on 17 January 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Except this is actually the reversion of a previous nerf, so not really the same as what you're saying (powercreep).

While I refer to powercreep, I'm saying to buff autocannons not nerf lasers. My reference to powercreep was just that I almost always recommend nerfing what's strongest rather than buffing what's weakest, but in this case it makes more sense to buff the autocannons. For a variety of reasons too, but most significantly that you can buff autocannons to be more consistent, but not actually do any more damage at maximum, while the only way you can nerf lasers is to basically flat out nerf their damage output, either directly by damage or by range.

A velocity buff for autocannons then is ideal, and while it'll make them more efficient in practice won't actually make them more powerful. Just more consistent and reliable.

[Khobai]

Im very against buffing any weapons when TTK is already tremendously low. I think the stronger weapons like lasers need to be nerfed instead. Because that will improve TTK rather than make it worse.

And since balance is entirely relative, nerfing lasers, is also a buff to autocannons.

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A velocity buff for autocannons then is ideal, and while it'll make them more efficient in practice won't actually make them more powerful. Just more consistent and reliable.

How does making a weapon more consistent/reliable not result in it being more powerful? lol...

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I guess everyone is also forgetting the huge rate of fire nerf that was given to them as well...

AC/5 rate of fire nerf was completely deserved. It was doing as much dps as an AC/20 which was stupid.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

AC velocities were nerfed for a reason

unnerfing them will just remind everyone of why they were nerfed in the first place

That reason is because Paul is incompetent.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Im very against buffing any weapons when TTK is already tremendously low. I think the stronger weapons like lasers need to be nerfed instead. Because that will improve TTK rather than make it worse.



AC/5 rate of fire nerf was completely deserved. It was doing as much dps as an AC/20 which was stupid.

Ac20s just suck. Thats the only stupid thing about them.

[Khobai]

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Ac20s just suck. Thats the only stupid thing about them.

increasing the AC20s velocity isnt gonna fix it anyway.

Anyone who thinks that clearly doesnt understand what the actual problem is.

The AC20s velocity isnt the problem. The problem is that brawling is basically dead in this game because the entire meta is dominating by mid-range and long-range laser vomit. The range on lasers needs to be massively reduced. CSPL needs to be nerfed as well.

Like I said before, balance is entirely relative, weapons like the AC20 can be made better just by reducing the range on lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

For me personally it IS the velocity. Even at brawling ranges the shells take 2 years to get to the dam target. thats why AC-40 crabs are just a liabliity.

Toss in the high heat and the stupid ghost heat and its pretty much a weapon you only carry if its Uberquirked or for nostalgia...

in brawling situtations id rather have a battery of IS large pulse lasers over an AC20 anyday.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

increasing the AC20s velocity isnt gonna fix it anyway.

Anyone who thinks that clearly doesnt understand what the actual problem is.

The AC20s velocity isnt the problem. The problem is that brawling is basically dead in this game because the entire meta is dominating by mid-range and long-range laser vomit. The range on lasers needs to be massively reduced. CSPL needs to be nerfed as well.

Like I said before, balance is entirely relative, weapons like the AC20 can be made better just by reducing the range on lasers.

Brawling is completely dead, so you need to nerf the best brawling weapon in the game? lolwut?

[Khobai]

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For me personally it IS the velocity. Even at brawling ranges the shells take 2 years to get to the dam target. thats why AC-40 crabs are just a liabliity.

AC40 crabs are a liability because theyre worse than jagermechs in every way.

assault mechs are way worse than heavy mechs. thats the problem with that.

I run my AC40 jagermech all the time and I have no issues whatsoever with the projectile velocity.

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Brawling is completely dead, so you need to nerf the best brawling weapon in the game? lolwut?

Yes because if you wanna bring back brawling you still need to balance the brawling weapons. And the CSPL needs to be nerfed because it makes the AC20 look like a joke in comparison. If you wanna restore the AC20 then you cant have energy weapons that are way better than the AC20. The AC20 and to a lesser extent SRMs should be the undisputed kings of brawling weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

AC40 crabs are a liability because theyre worse than jagermechs in every way.

assault mechs are way worse than heavy mechs. thats the problem with that.

I run my AC40 jagermech all the time and I have no issues whatsoever with the projectile velocity.

Because you can run the thing with an xl 280. Derp in to point blank range, deck someone and run off...the crab has much wider guns, is much less accurate and the low velocty KILLS its shots...

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Im very against buffing any weapons when TTK is already tremendously low. I think the stronger weapons like lasers need to be nerfed instead. Because that will improve TTK rather than make it worse.

And since balance is entirely relative, nerfing lasers, is also a buff to autocannons.

I addressed this in detail. There's really not a good way to nerf lasers without flat out nerfing damage, which... eh. Maybe that'll be necessary, but it's a very "hard" nerf.

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How does making a weapon more consistent/reliable not result in it being more powerful? lol...

It makes it more consistent and reliable, but the maximum ideal damage output does not increase. That is, if you're great with ballistics now and rarely miss, buffing velocity won't make you appreciably better.

However, for the bulk of players, it'll make them hit more often. This will improve ballistic performance for them, but it will do so without actually increasing the maximum damage output. There's an important difference there.

It's way easier to balance weapons that perform consistently. This is, incidentally, why LRM's have been so terribly hard to balance over the years: They're so inconsistent, it's nearly impossible to balance them well.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes because if you wanna bring back brawling you still need to balance the brawling weapons. And the CSPL needs to be nerfed because it makes the AC20 look like a joke in comparison. If you wanna restore the AC20 then you cant have energy weapons that are way better than the AC20. The AC20 and to a lesser extent SRMs should be the undisputed kings of brawling weapons.

Nerf the only good brawling weapon? That's ridiculous.

They have shorter range than the AC20, FYI, and should be good in their niche, which they are.

[Khobai]

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Nerf the only good brawling weapon? That's ridiculous.

They have shorter range than the AC20, FYI, and should be good in their niche, which they are.

Theyre too good. 6 damage for 1 ton is ridiculous. No other weapon in the game even comes close to that kindve damage to tonnage conversion except for the CERML which is 7 damage for 1 ton (but with longer beam duration). Overpowered crap like that is the whole reason IS now have stupid superquirks.

The only thing keeping them somewhat in check now is their limited range. But if we nerfed the range on the other lasers and got rid of the IS superquirks like I suggested then that limited range would no longer as big of a limitation.

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Because you can run the thing with an xl 280. Derp in to point blank range, deck someone and run off...the crab has much wider guns, is much less accurate and the low velocty KILLS its shots...

because heavies are better than assaults. I just said that.

assault guns are lower mounted, spread wider apart, they have worse pitch and arm movement, plus assaults are slow as hell, theyre easy to pinpoint, they have garbage torso twist, and theyre scaled poorly.

heavies completely dominate the game. if you check the usage % heavies are pretty much always used twice as much as the next weight class. And if you look at the tukkayid 2 stats. heavies were used twice as much as any other weight class for IS. And heavies were used more than ALL other weight classes combined for clans.

heavies have needed to be massively nerfed for a while now.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 01:04 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Is mediums are 5 damage for 1 ton.....by your logic they need to be nerfed as well..LOL

CLan brawling options are limited. if you allow a mech with Small lasers to close to effective range you deserve to die.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

And if you look at the tukkayid 2 stats.

Using CW for anything other than an example of a bad gamemode, why do people insist on such a thing?

Assaults are still pretty nasty, it has just become harder to find good ones. After all, up until a month ago, the Whale was the most dangerous and important mech to pilot.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[ZenFool]

I just scanned through some of the posts, so if anyone mentioned it already sorry.

Have you thought about what this does to some of the superquirked mechs? Most of the ones with ballistic velocity aren't great, but there is a blackjack variant with nice velocity quirks. I use the ac10 as an ac5 on it and its amazing. Give me more speed with it and guass becomes complete rubbish.

[Khobai]

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Is mediums are 5 damage for 1 ton.....by your logic they need to be nerfed as well..LOL

Not really because 5 damage for 1 ton isnt the same as 6 damage for 1 ton or 7 damage for 1 ton

do you know the difference between 5, 6, and 7? most children learn that in kindergarten.


But its also the heat too.

CSPL is 6 damage for 3 friggin heat.
The ISML is 5 damage for 4 heat.


And the beam duration.

CSPL is 0.75 beam duration
ISML is 0.9 beam duration


Oh and it has a shorter cooldown

CSPL is 2.25 cooldown
ISML is 3.00 cooldown


So no theres no logic where the ISML needs a nerf.

Edited by Khobai, 17 January 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 January 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

But its also the heat too.

CSPL is 6 damage for 3 friggin heat.
The ISML is 5 damage for 4 heat.


And the beam duration.

CSPL is 0.75 beam duration
ISML is 0.9 beam duration


Oh and it has a shorter cooldown

CSPL is 2.25 cooldown
ISML is 3.00 cooldown

Why do you leave out the biggest disparity between the two I wonder?
Let's talk about range, especially with decent quirks.
297m on the BJ-1X vs 165m on the SCrow. It may sound like a small gap but when you start including the range where it does 50% or more damage it starts to look worse. 446m on the BJ-1X vs 231m. With most quirks as well, the iML is around 3.6 heat because of 10% heat gen quirks. The comparison with general quirks (which are what the iML should have just in general) begins to look less one sided. Not to mention the cSPL can't be combined with other small or medium lasers to get around ghost heat, but iMLs can.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2016 - 01:16 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

OH MY GAWWD 1 EXTRA DAMAGE!! SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL I HAVE SEEN THE ERROR OF MY WAYS NERF THEM NOW PLZ!

Serously did a small laser nova touch you in your no no parts? Clan small lasers are fine, and I dont evne use the dam things. They have ONE niche, and that is spitting distance DPS. Other than that they are useless.