38 replies to this topic

[Dave Korhal]

What's a good loadout for a scouting mech?

My initial build is a Light Mech with max armor (80% in front), jump jets, a good engine, ECM and a TAG with minimal weapons. Am I overlooking anything?

[epikt]

As I always says, and I'm not alone: light mechs are not scouts!

Most light mechs are made to deal damage and kill stuff, not to point targets.

If you want to spot targets for LRMs, forget the TAG. You don't want to keep line of sight with a target in a light mech, you don't have the armor. Instead, use a NARC, it allows you to mark a target and disengage immediately, so you can mark other targets and/or fight (because you still need to deal your share of damage!).
Use a mech with a good NARC quirk, like the Raven-3L. If I remember correctly, I personally use an XL280, a NARC and 3 MPLas (something like that).

[Rogue Jedi]

Dave Korhal, on 17 January 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

What's a good loadout for a scouting mech?

My initial build is a Light Mech with max armor (80% in front), jump jets, a good engine, ECM and a TAG with minimal weapons. Am I overlooking anything?

if the main purpose of the Mech is scouting that sounds good, however if you can fit it the extra sensor range of the Active Probe could be useful, and if you can fit it NARC is better than TAG as you do not have to hold it on target and it does not reveal your position.
also you still need some damage dealing weapons, scouting is useful in the early stages of the match but after the teams have engaged you want to be able to contribute in another way, be it harassing, backstabbing or distracting enemy Mechs.

I would recommend something like these:
a Spider, fast and agile, able to reach places most others cannot
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...028d62d665a775a

the Raven 3L, the NARC weighs a lot more than the TAG but requires less exposure, it is a missile which places a tracking device on your target. the BAP is there for an extra 200m target acquisition range.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eb7de6fbffd60c5

the Arctic Cheetah, not as fast as the Spider or Raven but packing far more firepower thanks to the 4 ERML, which are roughly equivalent to 3 Inner Sphere large lasers
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7d3274929bf531b

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I HIGHLY respect the opinions of the other respondents above. That stated, I will disagree with a few points.

FIRST, I DO agree that light mechs as scouts are tragically UNDERutilized in this game. It's sad. Pathetic, even. In the 8v8 days of open beta, this was not the case. Not nearly so much, anyhow. And when TAG, NARC, BAP, and ECM all first came online, they were quite handy.

So, the disagreement? First, in the selection of NARC over TAG. Yes, if you're not careful, you WILL give away your position with a TAG. So BE CAREFUL. But the difference is at least 2.5 tons and a couple critical slots, and that is a LOT on a light mech. Even the RVN-3L, which is basically MADE for NARC, gives up something like 8% of its total weight MORE for NARC than TAG. A NARC with .5 tons of ammo is quite literally TEN PERCENT of the mech's weight. That's as light as you can get it on an IS mech (1.0 tons less on Clan for the launcher, as well as 1 critical slot fewer). That is a LOT to give up.

FURTHER, you give up 300 meters of range (150 for Clan) taking NARC instead of TAG. That is, TAG has a 750 meter range (IS/CLAN are identical), and NARC has only 450. This is buffed for the RVN-3L, of course, but not a LOT. (Again, the RVN-3L was very specifically engineered by our friends in the Capellan Confederation, aka House Liao, to be a NARC platform.) With Clan tech, it's 750 to 600. Still, that's a lot of standoff you're giving up, as a spotter (much different role from a scout--get some US Army vets talking about the difference between scouts and FOs, and you'll find out what I mean). What's the difference? That puts you out of the max range of the AC/20 (incl. Clan UAC/20 and LB-20X), LPL and ML (IS), and ERML and MPL (Clan), whereas the NARC keeps you within their max ranges to hit.

Consider, too, the difficulty of hitting a moving target, while moving, with a projectile weapon with a SLOW muzzle velocity. Compare that to a hitscan device, with greater range. And again, you need only learn to use it cautiously, so as to NOT flash the beam in front of an enemy mech's cockpit (IRL lasers used for these purposes don't make that distinct line, and the laser spot is usually only visible with certain not-everyone-always-uses-them devices, and so I'd prefer to see such an adjustment in MWO; TAG line/spot would be invisible on normal and thermal, and visible on night vision as a spot on the target and a line through any fog/smoke/rain/snow/etc.).

One obvious advantage, as stated above, is that the NARC doesn't require you to continually FACE the enemy mech, to get it targeted; once the beacon is attached, it's there for the duration. On the other hand, IIRC, the beacon becomes muted if the target mech comes under the cover of an ECM friendly to it. I don't recall this being the case with TAG. And honestly, if you CAN hide after deploying the beacon, then you often WILL. But THAT isn't recon. That's neither scouting nor spotting. It's just hiding. I'm asserting that using NARC in that fashion, as a spotting tool for friendlies, can (not necessarily DOES, but CAN, as in, has the potential to) build bad habits for a scout or spotter. You CANNOT report what you cannot SEE, and therefore, cannot be useful to your team as a scout or spotter if you cannot see your enemy. Know what I mean?

Next problem? Different skill sets to employ these weapons well. I feel that the TAG is an easier one to employ. Again, it's hitscan. Point, shoot, hold for the next available operator, laugh at your enemy's salty tears of rage quit. Rinse, repeat.

Now, as to the use of Beagle or Clan Active Probe, I disagree with using it on an ECM-equipped light mech. AGAIN, we're talking about a significant part of a light mech's overall weight, at least for IS. With Clan, if you're not planning to carry a Targeting Computer, then you may as well. I wouldn't RECOMMEND it, but it's not as big a deal. With IS, that eats up 1.5 tons and 2 slots. It doesn't do ANY counter-ECM, since you HAVE ECM. It DOES extend the sensor range by about 25%, but so does the ADVANCED SENSOR RANGE MODULE. Save up the CBills and GXP, and get one of those instead. It weighs ZERO, and takes up ZERO critical slots. It DOES occupy one mech module slot, but that's okay. Radar Deprivation is a little less important for an ECM mech. When you MASTER your mech, ASR should be your second module (Seismic Sensor, I'd argue, is the most important mech module for a scout). Extending the mech's sensor range to almost one kilometer is cool, at least on maybe TWO 12v12 maps (Alpine Peaks, Tourmaline Desert), and MAYBE two CW maps (Boreal Vault, Hellebore Springs). Outside of those, you won't need that much sensor range, and you'll almost never use that much. Unless your scout mech is carrying LRMs or Streak SRMs, there's no other direct benefit to you that can't be had by ECM and ASR. And since you're planning to carry ECM anyhow, well, your only excuse is a lack of GXP and CBills. Turns out, there's an EVENT this weekend (through Tuesday) that pays out a total of 750k CBills, and it's a great reason to get out and do some damage anyhow. So do that, make some money, earn some GXP, and get you some of that. But really, the 796-ish sensor range you have already is usually more than you need--you'll SEE the enemy on daylight maps before you ever get the red dorito, and you really ought to learn to visually identify them anyhow.

So, a recap:

I recommend you skip the NARC and BAP, and use TAG and (once you've gotten the mech to MASTER) the Advanced Sensor Range module, along with your ECM, and learn to do it well. You'll be fine, and likely more efficient at your role.

But that's just my humble opinion.

[epikt]

I agree NARC is a significant tonnage on a light mech (on any mech, really). This is not an equipment you equip just like that because you have one spare ton.

About range, it's indeed the big problem. Even with the range boost on the Raven (up to 600m iirc) its effective range is still ~300m because of the sloooooow missile velocity (except on immobile targets).
But to be honest, if a team allows you to flank them unnoticed and slip behind their back, and then allows you to TAG them without returning fire, well, I suppose you can sneak on them at 300m for one second.
The Narc is a mid range device. Good, because LRMs are mid range weapons too. You don't want your team to be 1km away. The NARC allows you to spot while still being part of the pack.

I see what you mean when you say NARC can build bad habits. Nothing I can do about it, except constantly remind rookies that 1/ you can NARC two mechs at the same time and 2/ it's not because you're a spotter that you shouldn't fight. The bad habit you describe only can develop if the player already have misconception about light mechs role (thinking it's enough to "scout" and spot targets). If it's the case, their behaviour will be the same with or without NARC. For example, they'll have a TAG, sneak behind the enemy and never use their weapons.
It's a bit weird actually. This fire-and-forget mechanic is what makes the NARC so wonderful, I'm having a hard time even considering it like a downside.

And at the opposite, this is the flaw of the TAG: while the NARC basically set you free of movement, when you TAG all your behaviour, from positioning to rate of fire, is subordinated to your TAG and your allies' missiles. You'll need to keep line of sight the whole time. If you want to deal damage sneakily you'll need to wait for a volley to land so you can shoot at the same time.

The most problematic is in my opinion, when you adopt this tactic, you're making a bet on the inability of the enemy to detect you and properly respond. I always found it's a bad assumption to make to consider your opponent less skilled than you are, that they need to make something wrong for your tactic to work, it leads to severe disillusions. Like, I don't know, a barrage of ER large lasers and a Firestarter to finish you off.

Also, there is indeed a trick to avoid being detected by your target's friendlies: target the last mech in the line. I have one problem with that: missile travel time. Not only the missiles will fly through the whole team's AMS (even if those things seam out of fashion) but the farthest the target the longest you must keep lock on it, the less you and your missile boat can be reactive. Not to mention it spreads the damage between the front line primary targets and some random mech in the rear that will only join the fight in 30 seconds.
(the NARC on the other hand can help with front line focus)

So, ok, the NARC come with few downsides. But it gives you safety, flexibility and the ability to engage in the fight without worrying much about the spotting. That's certainly worth it.


PS: oh, and haven't we say NARC counters ECM? All those ECM-carriers thinking they're invincible in their bubble, they become primary targets. So ironic.

[Galenit]

epikt, on 18 January 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

So, ok, the NARC come with few downsides. But it gives you safety, flexibility and the ability to engage in the fight without worrying much about the spotting. That's certainly worth it.


PS: oh, and haven't we say NARC counters ECM? All those ECM-carriers thinking they're invincible in their bubble, they become primary targets. So ironic.

Most downside of narc is, that you only get a reward if the narced enemy is killed by lrms (most time lrms open them up, but direct fire kills them).
Most up for narc is the fun when (you have good lrm-users in your team and) the sky gets dark and the storm follows you, killing enemy after enemy.

NARC is a fun weapon if you dont need money.

Edited by Galenit, 18 January 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Very interesting stuff in re Tag and Nark above. Going back to the OP though, I think the biggest issue with so called scouts is that the "scout" function should be viewed as a secondary one. Primary role is harassment/snipe (I see these as the same since there is no real sniping in this game since no light can carry enough firepower to kill a target at distance so sniping is really just harassment at long range) support or squirrel/flanker. If you intend to do more than just watch, then you need weapons to do that. Fine take a Tag. When you are spotted you want to be able to at least deter pursuit and or change your "scout role" into something else, and that is the role choice I refer to above.

Example:
So you're up high in some perch spotting and calling targets. You're spotted. Time to change roles.

Want to distract the enemy and draw away some of them from your team? Stay visible but keep moving to try and draw the dumber ones after you. You are the squirrel. Make them chase you. Hit and run. Hard part is to know when to do this (team needs you to cause a distraction) and to have the speed and terrain to pull it off (doing this on open ground is generally a bad idea).

Want to be more of a direct threat, but still draw fire from the team? Start snipping. Can't snipe if you don't have a long range weapon and a good selection of cover.

Sick of hanging back? Well now that you're spotted, get in there and make your self a pain in the butt. Flank. Hit the edges. Run up an alpha that Dire in the back so he turns away from the overheating Atlas on your team, etc. Zip in and around the enemy, make em hit each other while they try and hit you. To do this you need serious speed, a decent alpha, some back armor, etc.

Want to help support your heavies with that ECM? Get in and among them. Maybe even bring an AMS to give em a bit more protection. Support role is only one where a BAP is always handy. Not only the improved targeting aspect but the warning you will get if an enemy ECM is about (on the flip side: remember a BAP will trigger in enemy ECM mechs a counter warning so they will know when you are close by. Avoid BAP or make sure it is off, if you are going to try and be sneaky. Also on ECM know when to use counter and disrupt!).

My point is: in most matches, in the current game we have, scouting is a very temporary task for a given mech. The primary role(s) discussed above should be more of your focus (assuming you want to engage the enemy and help your team after the initial scouting role is over) and you should build accordingly.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Re: NARC and ECM

The NARC beacon cancels ECM protection on the mech it is attached to, if that mech is an ECM carrier. IF that mech moves within the 90m radius of ANOTHER ECM mech friendly to it, it is then protected by THAT mech's ECM in spite of the NARC.

Useful tool for countering ECM (pretty sure that invokes a couple instances of the counter-ECM bonus for XP and CBills and match score), but can also be countered by a second ECM.

TAG, on the other hand, CANNOT be countered by any number of ECMs. The TAG spot has a decay period, too, though that's been significantly nerfed since its introduction. Something like 1.0 seconds, IIRC. Still, one CAN break TAG, reposition, re-TAG, and still get the bonus when missiles hit.

Another cool thing with TAG? No ammo dependency. Once a NARC is out of ammo, it's 2-3 tons of dead weight. There's a good reason that E weapons are preferred on most light mech builds (Jenner Oxide and IIC, and Raven Huginn, being notable exceptions). They require no ammo, and therefore, they require less tonnage on those weight-limited light mechs.

More TAG coolness? One can easily light-up a formation of enemy mechs under ECM with TAG, and do so QUICKLY, to alert the team to the presence/position of those mechs. With NARC, it would take some time and effort to NARC every ECM carrier in the group. That's also a significant expenditure of ammo, and might be somewhat wasteful of one if the team is already well positioned with respect to the enemy, or if they don't have a good Line of Sight for LRMs (something EVERY good spotter needs to take into account when designating targets).

One more cool thing. When your mech is NARCed, you get an indicator in the bottom-left quarter of the HUD, right below the speed bar. You have no excuse to NOT know that you've got NARC on you. You see that, you haul it for cover, and you poke from there until the NARC wears off. With TAG? Nope. NO cockpit indication that you're being designated with TAG. It's stealthy! Sure, your teammates will be able to see an icon on their HUDs over your mech's blue dorito, indicating NARC or TAG designation, but then communication in even Tier 3 among PUGs is pretty weak, and the majority of those are never reported to the designated mech's pilot.

I agree that the face time for successful NARC is problematic. To me, it's an easier problem to solve. But each player is different, and will have to figure out for himself/herself what works best.

I'm just offering my perspective, and the reasoning of why I prefer TAG over NARC for my own purposes.

To be fair, I've seen NARC used more often by spotters in CW matches (someone had an Arctic Cheetah with NARC that hopped from hilltop to hilltop in Hellebore, spotting us with NARC and a little SL fire before retreating over the crest of the hill and laughing at our Lurmy fate). TAG is something that missile boaters will more likely carry, as it has a better range and maintaining the target lock requires face time anyhow (or a spotter).

Nonetheless, I've often been able to park a spotter mech in a good spot and call targets, without my position being betrayed by TAG (thanks to ECM keeping my dorito a secret). ACH and RVN have both been exceptional for this role, though the teams rarely ever take advantage of it. Been thinking of dusting off the spotters, though, since LRMs are trying to make a comeback. We'll see...

[Rogue Jedi]

TheRAbbi, on 18 January 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

TAG, on the other hand, CANNOT be countered by any number of ECMs.

not entirely correct, if you are under an enemy ECM bubble your TAG has no effect regardless of whether the targeted Mech is under ECM or not, but other than that yes the TAG is better if the enemy have e.g. a lance of ECM Mechs in tight formation

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 18 January 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Havyek]

Honestly the TAG/NARC bonus is nice to have, but unnecessary. You're better off with ECM and some way to deal damage, find a position that you can target the enemy without being seen and just call out positions (or hit R for the LRM boats.) Sneaking in close to the backfield and launching a UAV can also be of great help.

Basically (and IMO of course) you want to be FAST, agile (usually means jump jets) hard to spot/target (usually ECM or at the very least a radar deprivation module) and hard hitting.

Don't forget, scouting is great until the initial engagement, then you'll be worthless once your team knows where the enemy is. Something that can do a decent alpha into the backs of assaults/heavies is a great asset to your team. Killing them is the best, but drawing their attention away from a friendly can be just as helpful (also going from having their back to your, to having their back to the rest of your team usually results in a quick kill assist).

[epikt]

Havyek, on 18 January 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Honestly the TAG/NARC bonus is nice to have, but unnecessary. You're better off with ECM and some way to deal damage, find a position that you can target the enemy without being seen and just call out positions (or hit R for the LRM boats.)

I disagree, and that reminds me of another reason why NARC is much better than TAG or any line of sight spotting: in a light mech, even if you're a scout/spotter, but you're also a finisher, the one who's takes down the cored enemy retreated behind their line. For that reason you'll constantly change target, until you spot the one with the exposed XL engine. As a light mech doing its harassment/skavenger job, you simply don't hold locks, and holding locks prevents you to be efficient at your task.

Edited by epikt, 18 January 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[MadCat02]

Well Light mech has to do more than scouting but generally Jump Jets are very important for that .

Also you can get Sensor Range modules if you want to target mechs further . It helps scouting actually on maps with lots of trees .

Edited by MadCat02, 18 January 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Rogue Jedi, on 18 January 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

not entirely correct, if you are under an enemy ECM bubble your TAG has no effect regardless of whether the targeted Mech is under ECM or not, but other than that yes the TAG is better if the enemy have e.g. a lance of ECM Mechs in tight formation

Got it. Sorry, I'm working from a couple of assumptions that didn't fit that scenario. There certainly ARE situations in which NARC is superior, and that would appear to be one of them. That is, as long as the ECM mech within 90 meters of you is the one you want to designate/spot. And some other situations, too.

And again, it IS largely a matter of personal preference. There are pros and cons to either.

[loopala]

got big kuhonas? don't mind the team harassing you in chat when this mech falls flat as the last mech with just a tag left? do you have good situational awareness? can you dance in and out of cover? do you like to lone wolf? don't mind very low damage numbers? have many hours in a light being able to lose an enemy? know the maps like the back of your hand? do you like suicidal mechs that can be 1 shotted by almost any meta mech out there?

if you can answer yes to all these questions. maybe, just maybe you are ready to play the littlest LRM dingy (too small to call a boat) with mods you have just a hair over 1000m sensors lrms hit at 1100m, not really but they do hit at 800m better then most. the cherry on top..... a 1125 tag! yep tagging mechs from another zip code. hit the outer edge of the map, circle around behind the reds, being very very careful never to be seen. cover is your friend. once your lrm boats are in range. tag that big assault in the back, you know the one with lrm 45 plus alpha. from about 900m he can't find you, well if you keep your tag from being seen. once the LRMs start raining fire a few of yours to get an assist.

this mech has been cussed at by friend and foe alike. but when it works it is glorius

Edited by loopala, 18 January 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[mailin]

I must admit, I'm not in favor of Narc either. For lrm spotters generally I use either my Spider 5D with 3 mlas and a UAV or a Raven 3L with a tag, but no narc. I really don't like the fact that I am limited by the amount of ammo on my mech. In a light I have a very hard time justifying the weight for something that may become useless before the match is even over. Also, as a member of Puglandia, you never know if your team is going to have lrms. If I take a tag, I'm only out one ton if no friendlies have lrms.

With the recent nerf to ECM range, I find that it is fairly easy to get a lock and hold it if you can get behind the enemy.

And sorry, but I won't tell you where my favorite places are. You'll need to find those on your own, but every map has several good spots.

YMMV

Edited by mailin, 18 January 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[loopala]

oh BTW if you are wondering about TAG and giving away your position. this little vid was about dumb firing LRMs to chase off lights, but it show just how well the tag can been seen and give away your position




best to watch full screen and 1080

Edited by loopala, 18 January 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[epikt]

mailin, on 18 January 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I really don't like the fact that I am limited by the amount of ammo on my mech.

On my Raven I have 2 tons, it means I could mark each enemy twice, if I had to. With the quirk and module, the beacon last for one minute (instead of 30 sec). It's more than enough.

Quote

Also, as a member of Puglandia, you never know if your team is going to have lrms.

I remember last time I dropped with this mech in solo queue (I was tired I suppose), I had almost no lurm in my team for 5 consecutive games.
So I just marked the enemy, kept fighting, and my team was playing with a wallhack.

But yep, I don't often play this mech, and when I do it's most of the time in group queue when I have one (or two) heavy lurm-boat with me.

Edited by epikt, 19 January 2016 - 01:05 AM.

[TheOddball]

The RVN-3L is my go to for sniffing out the other team. Use the NARC since you get a range quirk for it. With ECM and Radar Dep, you can run behind them, point them all out, keep track of movement, call targets, etc. and then disappear altogether. If you have figured out the terrain, you can hide really well in a lot of maps.

It also packs a nice punch, useful against the rear armor of bigger 'mechs. I rock MLs and SRMs, and can make short work of the rear armor of fire support 'mechs.

It is also a useful 'mech if you are trying to be the squirrel in a match. Nothing quite as fun as stepping on an enemy base and then hiding to draw the enemy away from an engagement with your team.

[XX Sulla XX]

One of the things I think most new players get wrong is the idea of a scout. You can build a good light mech that deals damage and also because its fast finds the enemy. See the thing is a good light pilot can do lots of damage and gets lots of kills. Shoot a really good light pilot in in tier 5 in a good mech build can turn most games. But they will do it by getting 1000ish damage and 7 kills. Its not about tag its not about NARC its just about being a good light pilot. And if in low tiers a really good light pilot can do amazing things. Shoot even a half way decent light pilot can.

If you want an idea of a good light scout build look at Metamechs. http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

Honestly at low tiers you can get behind and then kill mech after mech. And even if they do see you they probably will not be able to hit you

[Lolo van Trollinger]

my personal preferences here - for advanced scout trawling...

I choose a ECM light with a very fast engine option (Spider, Pirates Bane Locust, Raven, Commando).
I slot ECM, Radar Deprevation or Seismic, Beagle Active Probe, Advanced Sensor Range, TAG and/or NARC for marking and
some ER-Large Laser or Medium Laser. I also use fully upgraded UAV - very important, 60 seconds an range - and Artillery (doesnt give away your position if done right)
+50% sensor range should end the debate about who is detecting whom. you ca R-Key lock them from a far mile or TAG them. you can NARC them and run off. Whatever the situation allowes.
Everything else is for breaking contact when detected. Dont fight unless your the last one, never attack the front - you gave up weaponry for support.

Keep in mind you do not need ECM in disrupt when you are close (it gives you away) and to switch AMS to OFF unless needed, so it does not give away your position. Staying behind their backs also makes sure you do not show on their locks.

happy scouting

Edited by Lolo van Trollinger, 19 January 2016 - 09:37 AM.