11 replies to this topic

[Generic Internetter]

I suggest beam lasers should be changed to fire in a "continuous" manner, IE: Change/remove the internal timing system (cooldown & duration) so they fire continuously (like flamers).

If you step back a moment and think about laser beams IRL: While they're on, they're on; While they're off, they're off.
I've always thought it's silly for beam lasers to function the way they do in MWO.
Ask yourself: "Why would a laser stop firing if I'm still holding down the button/trigger?"

Doing this to beam lasers would bring pulse lasers back into the spotlight on equal footing. At the moment I see people favouring beam over pulse most of the time, almost always.
Pulse lasers having a short duration makes sense, because the energy is compressed into short pulses at the expense of tonnage and heat.

At the moment, beam and pulse lasers function almost exactly the same, because they both have a duration and a cooldown time. The difference in duration time and the beam animation is a minor difference, not related to how they actually function on a "duration/cooldown clock".

If this improvement is made, some of the related stats would need a minor tweak here and there.
In fact, it would make sense for continuous beam lasers to do more DPS than pulse, because they don't waste energy compressing the beam into pulses.

That way you choose either lighter and/or more powerful continuous beam lasers that leave you 100% exposed, vs heavier and/or less powerful pulse lasers that let you get your damage out and move/take cover while they recharge (cooldown).

Just to be clear, this isn't a nerf; It's just a change to add more strategic variety and more depth to mech builds.

[TLDR] The suggestion is:
MAKE ALL BEAM WEAPONS CONTINUOUS FIRE
REMOVE THEIR COOLDOWN AND DURATION VALUES COMPLETELY
MAKE THEM CONTINUOUS, THE SAME WAY THAT FLAMERS ARE TIMED

...Anyone else tired of the excess of LR Laser boats?

Edited by Generic Internetter, 18 January 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[adamts01]

Maybe the reactor can only generate electricity so fast, and it needs to be stored in a capacitor bank. Once that's depleted, the laser is on cooldown till it's charged. Or maybe it's so much heat that it needs to cool off periodically. It doesn't really matter.

[Generic Internetter]

adamts01, on 18 January 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Maybe the reactor can only generate electricity so fast, and it needs to be stored in a capacitor bank. Once that's depleted, the laser is on cooldown till it's charged. Or maybe it's so much heat that it needs to cool off periodically. It doesn't really matter.

That's a fair point, but then: "Why would a laser keep firing if I've taken my finger off the button/trigger?"

If it doesn't matter then that's fine, but it doesn't devalue the feature suggestion.

[adamts01]

Generic Internetter, on 18 January 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

That's a fair point, but then: "Why would a laser keep firing if I've taken my finger off the button/trigger?"

If it doesn't matter then that's fine, but it doesn't devalue the feature suggestion.

It's a fine suggestion. I actually do like it. It would bring some variety in to the game, which would be nice. You're right, they're both pretty much the same thing with different stats.

[butchly13]

adamts01, on 18 January 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Maybe the reactor can only generate electricity so fast, and it needs to be stored in a capacitor bank. Once that's depleted, the laser is on cooldown till it's charged. Or maybe it's so much heat that it needs to cool off periodically. It doesn't really matter.

Definitely a good call on the "real world physics" side of things if they need an explanation for why lasers behave the way they do.

But, getting back to the point on hand, I think this would introduce a new mechanic to the game that would help feature an individual's skill, or at least let them manage their heat better. Basically, take the clan vs IS stats for each laser and calculate their DPS/HPS and let the pilot choose how long to hold it.

Pros:

• Ability to manage heat better
  
• Lights could potentially deal more damage with strafing runs and become a bigger contributor to the team effort
  
• Laser boats may not be necessary because pilots can opt for a longer sustained DPS build over a high alpha. Maybe it's just me but if I can sustain 3-4 DPS in a light for a minute without overheating I'd take that over a single alpha that I can only use once but is guaranteed to destroy an arm/torso each time. Then again I engage at a distance. High alphas are still important for brawlers and are still possible with continuous lasers.

Cons:

• Ability to maximize damage per heat generated while pop-tarting/hill humping so we might see more ERLL nuisance builds that end up being a bigger pain than some would like.
  
• Inability to chain fire. I like chain firing when I'm running hot and I don't have macros or a fancy mouse to let me utilize all my weapon groups effectively.
  
• Could result in higher DPS for long range nuisance builds. Start at 0 heat and hold the trigger until you're about to shutdown. Granted this leaves you exposed longer but I know I've had my fair share of opportunities to just lay into someone without them moving or anyone firing at me.

[adamts01]

The more I think about it the more I like it. Stacking ten lasers and doing big burst damage would still be a thing. There would still have to be some sort of ceiling to how many you could fire at once. Maybe each additional laser does extra heat, kind of like ghost heat. That would edge people towards adding missiles and ballistics and stuff. What about the poor nova?

[butchly13]

Agreed. Still possible, possibly too possible. Ghost heat or a heat multiplier would prolly be the best idea. That nova could get mad dangerous with arms full of lasers haha.

Anything to help players put more variety in I think is a good thing IMO though. I see too many of the same builds and not enough creativity. It'd be nice if I saw more people trying to be ridiculous and have more fun than just build the best mech based on what they found on metamechs.

[SockSlayer]

My answer would be no. The reason why is that in mw4, they had the large laser, but also had the continuous large laser, which never quit firing, does 1 damage, and had a range of 900 m. So, in MWO, it would look like an large laser that keeps firing the entire time, but with less damage.

[adamts01]

Independence MK2, on 18 January 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

My answer would be no. The reason why is that in mw4, they had the large laser, but also had the continuous large laser, which never quit firing, does 1 damage, and had a range of 900 m. So, in MWO, it would look like an large laser that keeps firing the entire time, but with less damage.

Why no? Was it too OP that it didn't stop firing? It seems like missiles or ballistics would be a good counter to that, as ballistics could alpha damage and they'd have to stay exposed where LRMs could hit them.

[Generic Internetter]

butchly13, on 18 January 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

Cons:

• Ability to maximize damage per heat generated while pop-tarting/hill humping so we might see more ERLL nuisance builds that end up being a bigger pain than some would like.
  
• Inability to chain fire. I like chain firing when I'm running hot and I don't have macros or a fancy mouse to let me utilize all my weapon groups effectively.
  
• Could result in higher DPS for long range nuisance builds. Start at 0 heat and hold the trigger until you're about to shutdown. Granted this leaves you exposed longer but I know I've had my fair share of opportunities to just lay into someone without them moving or anyone firing at me.

First off, I loved your post. You make perfect sense and clearly have thought about the details.


I don't necessarily agree with the cons, or rather them being cons.

Poptarting (or 'jump peeking' as I prefer. poptart sounds... weird)... Jump peeking would be more effective because you can fire for the whole time you're exposed, but would it really be very different to jump peeking as it is? The jump is pretty much the full duration of a LL anyway, so hardly any difference IMO.

It would result in higher DPS for players who are leaving themselves completely exposed; That's the trade-off, exposure for damage.Don't like being exposed? Use pulse!

Chain fire... Well... You wouldn't need to chain fire multiple lasers of the same type anyway, because it's continuous without duration or cooldown. You'd group fire X lasers for X times the DPS and heat. Ghost heat would also apply... Maybe lower the ghost heat limit to 3, like LRMs?
I can't understand why anyone would ever chain fire different types of lasers together...? The ranges and cooldowns are all over the place, so it would be fine waste of tonnage and DPS.

Oh and the 'fancy mouse' part?
I have never seen anyone effectively use more than 4 groups. My setup is:
Group 1: Left Mouse Button
Group 2: Right Mouse Button
Group 3: Mouse Wheel Down
Group 4: Mouse Wheel Up
Group 5: Mouse Wheel Button (I dont use this because my mouse slips too much, but others could try it)
Group 6: Seriously... Who uses all 6 groups?!

I use Q for Toggle Zoom Mode and V for Advanced Zoom Module, so no zooming using the mouse.

With my setup, I'd only be able to put continuous lasers in group 1 and 2. If I used the mouse wheel button, then that would also work, only stopping briefly to roll up or down for groups 3 and 4 if needed. Really, the only limitations with my setup is that you can't do 3 and 4 continuously, or at the same time as 3, 4, or 5.

Normally I only use 3 for SRMs and 4 for LRMs, with all my 'shooty guns' in 1 and 2.

Independence MK2, on 18 January 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

My answer would be no. The reason why is that in mw4, they had the large laser, but also had the continuous large laser, which never quit firing, does 1 damage, and had a range of 900 m. So, in MWO, it would look like an large laser that keeps firing the entire time, but with less damage.

adamts01, on 18 January 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Why no? Was it too OP that it didn't stop firing? It seems like missiles or ballistics would be a good counter to that, as ballistics could alpha damage and they'd have to stay exposed where LRMs could hit them.

I agree. It would look like a continuous laser. Yes. I see no problem with that.
If it was OP, then simply tweak the stats to change the DPS/tonnage/range/etc.

Edited by Generic Internetter, 19 January 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[butchly13]

Generic Internetter, on 19 January 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

First off, I loved your post. You make perfect sense and clearly have thought about the details.
I don't necessarily agree with the cons, or rather them being cons.

Poptarting (or 'jump peeking' as I prefer. poptart sounds... weird)... Jump peeking would be more effective because you can fire for the whole time you're exposed, but would it really be very different to jump peeking as it is? The jump is pretty much the full duration of a LL anyway, so hardly any difference IMO.

It would result in higher DPS for players who are leaving themselves completely exposed; That's the trade-off, exposure for damage.Don't like being exposed? Use pulse!

Chain fire... Well... You wouldn't need to chain fire multiple lasers of the same type anyway, because it's continuous without duration or cooldown. You'd group fire X lasers for X times the DPS and heat. Ghost heat would also apply... Maybe lower the ghost heat limit to 3, like LRMs?
I can't understand why anyone would ever chain fire different types of lasers together...? The ranges and cooldowns are all over the place, so it would be fine waste of tonnage and DPS.

Thanks, I appreciate it! I listed the first point as a con simply because it might cause an imbalance in how much damage snipers can cause. I've had opportunities in the past where I'd have loved to keep a continuous laser on a target but cooldowns put a quick hamper on that. Alternatively I could swap my double cERLLs for a single cERLL and extra heat sinks and nearly maintain continuous fire. Some might find that annoying. I'd rather side with you though and see it as a pro because it would benefit my play style. I figured others might see it differently though.

As for the chain fire, I suppose what I should have said is right now I put chain fire on a group of lasers so I can rapid click for the "burst" type attack or just shoot one laser at a time if my heat is going up. If lasers were continuous fire I'd likely end up having to make multiple laser groups (or learn about macros and start using them) so I could choose the right grouping to manage my heat. That being said, I personally would opt for reducing my laser count and upping my heat sinks if continuous lasers became a thing.

Thanks for having an intelligent counter-point though. I haven't been seeing many of those recently haha

Edited by butchly13, 19 January 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Generic Internetter]

butchly13, on 19 January 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I could swap my double cERLLs for a single cERLL and extra heat sinks and nearly maintain continuous fire. Some might find that annoying. I'd rather side with you though and see it as a pro because it would benefit my play style. I figured others might see it differently though.

I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but what I feel you're describing is simply the transition from pulse-style lasers based on duration and cooldown to continuous fire. If the DPS remains the same on beams weapons, then it wouldn't make much difference at all for the player on the receiving end of the shot.

As for switching to more heat sinks, well that's just a matter of playstyle choice, because although you'd have more longevity on the trigger, with only 1 laser instead of 2 you're halving your DPS. Kind of the same difference between 2x ML vs 1x ML + 1x HS. In a sense, you could even say it's the same difference as going from 2x ML to 1x MPL, because the MPL generates less heat than 2 MLs.

butchly13, on 19 January 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

As for the chain fire, I suppose what I should have said is right now I put chain fire on a group of lasers so I can rapid click for the "burst" type attack or just shoot one laser at a time if my heat is going up. If lasers were continuous fire I'd likely end up having to make multiple laser groups (or learn about macros and start using them) so I could choose the right grouping to manage my heat.

The burst-click-vs-slow-click chain fire technique wouldn't be necessary with continuous fire.
It would be replaced with a stuttered group fire technique (Hold for 1 sec, off for 1 sec). You'd have complete control over how when and how long you fire. This I feel would mimic the burst-click-vs-slow-click chain fire technique almost exactly.

As for multiple groups, you wouldn't need more groups than you already use. If you're at present mixing laser types into a single group, then you could do the same grouping with continuous fire. Unless there's something I'm missing about chain fire?

butchly13, on 19 January 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Thanks for having an intelligent counter-point though. I haven't been seeing many of those recently haha

Thanks to you too! The MWO community is possibly the most mature I've ever seen for an online game, but yes, I also sometimes see little spates of attitude on the forums and in game.

Edited by Generic Internetter, 19 January 2016 - 12:55 PM.