48 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Why does every mech have adhere to the same speed formula anyway? Why can't it be different for each mech?

[FupDup]

Kaeb Odellas, on 18 January 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Why does every mech have adhere to the same speed formula anyway? Why can't it be different for each mech?

That would require anti-normalization...I don't think Paul would permit such.

From a coding standpoint, it's technically possible already. In one of the files containing the information for each variant, there is a speed multiplier (my own term, I forgot what the actual MDF file calls it) code tag listed. For every mech in the game right now, the value is set to 16.2 (as in, engine rating / tonnage * 16.2 = top speed).

If PGI felt like it, some mechs actually could (without adding any new code whatsoever) have a value other than 16.2 that would end up affecting their top speed in-game.

Edited by FupDup, 18 January 2016 - 09:46 PM.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

crustydog, on 18 January 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

They need to unlock the engines on the Clan mechs, and improve the engine ranges on all mechs. Mech design is a balancing act. You can go all energy, with lighter weapons, and a faster engine (with more internal heat sinks), and you trade off higher speed and no ammunition for very high heat. Conversely, you are supposed to be able to load up on heavy autocannons or lots of missiles with lots of ammo - Low heat and high DPS but you have to use smaller engines to do this, so slower mechs and ammo explosions.

The restrictions on engine size, including the Clan locked engines, are the greatest limiting factor to building effective mech builds, and these same restrictions force many mechs to be stuck in tier five. Similar concerns exist for hardpoints, such as with the Summoner or the Vindicator. Engine restrictions, and in general locked items such as jump jets etc, force certain mechs into certain roles due to build limitations, and if the mech cannot compete in that role, then it simply collects dust.

if we are going to lock internals than hardpoints need to be locked. i like the idea of being able to mess with internals but its a trade off and a simple option (costing C-bills) to pick omnimech or battlemech would be great but thats a can of worms for another thread/day

[ChapeL]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

The problem IMO is that heavy mechs move too fast. Heavies should be moving at a speed in between mediums and assaults. They should not be moving nearly as fast as mediums. Id like to see unique skill trees for each weight class.

Agreed, it's a shame that a heavy mech going 64-71 is considered too slow.

[adamts01]

DAYLEET, on 18 January 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

I dont know how many times i hit reverse and didnt feel it so i hit reverse again and im not going backward wtf is going on so i panic trying to figure out wtf is going on while i keep moving toward a bunch of enemies alone and die or stand there while they all unload at me.

I hit reverse in some mechs and absolutely nothing happens till I shimmy my legs a little or pop my jets for a second. I think it's based on the velocity/angle crap. Starting from a stop seems to be impossible sometimes, even on nearly flat terrain. Another reason to always bring at least 1 JJ.

Barantor, on 18 January 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

I think if we could finally get torso speed not linked to engine size it would fix a lot of problems on a lot of chassis.

It might as well not be already. All the mechs that are stuck running small motors got movement quirks. It's so stupid, they should just change the mechanic already.

Kaeb Odellas, on 18 January 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Why does every mech have adhere to the same speed formula anyway? Why can't it be different for each mech?

It is different for each mech. There are more acceleration quirks than I care to list, and even a few velocity quirks.

[Kaeb Odellas]

adamts01, on 18 January 2016 - 11:09 PM, said:

It is different for each mech. There are more acceleration quirks than I care to list, and even a few velocity quirks.

I'm not talking about acceleration. I mean top speed. The only mech I can think of with a Speed quirk is the Summoner.

[Random Carnage]

The only time my Dire ever breaks 53 kph, is when it falls off something.

And you think you've got it tough?

[El Bandito]

I am more pissed off about the atrocious Hill Climb Rate for the Assaults. Pebbles-of-steel continue to show the incompetence of PGI at balancing.

Let's give the class with slowest speed, biggest obstacles for movement. What could go wrong?

Edited by El Bandito, 19 January 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[MacBeth]

Calm down Kiwi I was trying to champion yer cause

Edited by MacBeth, 19 January 2016 - 12:28 AM.

[Random Carnage]

Oh, I'm calm. I have FO4 to fall back on when I want to play with a real stompy robot. It has a sprint mode, and doesn't get stuck on a twig, can fall without taking damage and it doesn't disintegrate the moment a rad roach looks at it. I just play MWO to remind myself how good I have it in my power armor.

Strong is my bltch.

[MeiSooHaityu]

My Urbanmechs miss that extra little bit of speed. They are slow enough as it is, why make them slower?

I understand the debuff more.for Heavies and Assaults more than I do Lights and Mediums.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Doesnt matter how people build their mediums. The average speed of heavies should still be between the average speed of mediums and assaults.

Again heavies should not go nearly the same average speed as mediums. Heavies already have a huge firepower and armor advantage over mediums. They shouldnt get the same speed advantage too. Thats wrong.

Heavies should not really be able to go faster than 80kph. So if you took speed tweak away from heavies they would be going the speed they should be going.



Well lights and mediums definitely need speed tweak. You cant take it away from them or they go too slow.

heavies should not have speed tweak.

assaults probably could make do without speed tweak if spawn locations and hillclimbing were fixed.

No, then remove speed tweak from EVERYTHING. Everyone uses the same construction rules, and smaller mechs already have it easier to go fast due to the non linear increase in engine tonnage as you go through the 300+ ratings. Not the fault of the system if players are building slow mediums and fast heavies - it is unarguably easier to go fast in a medium. Doing what you suggest would screw IS heavies terribly badly, and Clan heavies.. are paying the tonnage for their massive engines.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, then remove speed tweak from EVERYTHING. Everyone uses the same construction rules, and smaller mechs already have it easier to go fast due to the non linear increase in engine tonnage as you go through the 300+ ratings. Not the fault of the system if players are building slow mediums and fast heavies - it is unarguably easier to go fast in a medium. Doing what you suggest would screw IS heavies terribly badly, and Clan heavies.. are paying the tonnage for their massive engines.

I disagree. Speed tweak needs to remain on lights and mediums. Because those weight classes are outright weaker than heavies. Heavies are the best weight class period. Part of the problem is that heavies exist on the most efficient part of the tonnage/engine rating curve. Because of how engine ratings increase in weight exponentially, it overly punishes mediums for taking bigger engines, but doesnt punish heavies nearly as much because they have much more available tonnage.

And no its not unarguably easier to go fast in a medium. Most mediums at best only go like 10kph-15kph faster than heavies at most. Thats not enough of a speed gap for mediums to have a significant advantage in that regard. A 90kph timberwolf can easily keep a medium going 105kph in its weapon range long enough to obliterate it.

Quote

Not the fault of the system if players are building slow mediums and fast heavies

Of course it is. If people have to make mediums slower for them to compete in firepower and fast mediums cant compete in the current system then there obviously is a problem.

The reality is heavies are the absolute best weight class, not just by a small margin, but by an ENORMOUS margin, and they need a huge smackdown.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2016 - 06:00 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

I disagree. Speed tweak needs to remain on lights and mediums. Because those weight classes are outright weaker than heavies. Heavies are the best weight class period. Part of the problem is that heavies exist on the most efficient part of the tonnage/engine rating curve. Because of how engine ratings increase in weight exponentially, it overly punishes mediums for taking bigger engines, but doesnt punish heavies nearly as much because they have much more available tonnage.

And no its not unarguably easier to go fast in a medium. Most mediums at best only go like 10kph-15kph faster than heavies at most. Thats not enough of a speed gap for mediums to have a significant advantage in that regard. A 90kph timberwolf can easily keep a medium going 105kph in its weapon range long enough to obliterate it.



Of course it is. If people have to make mediums slower for them to compete in firepower and fast mediums cant compete in the current system then there obviously is a problem.

The reality is heavies are the absolute best weight class, not just by a small margin, but by an ENORMOUS margin, and they need a huge smackdown.

Heavies come at a higher opportunity cost (tonnage) than mediums, therefore they should be better overall. You won't convince me otherwise until such time as all tonnage restrictions are removed from all game modes, if tonnage isnt supposed to matter. Assaults need minor buffing so that they reclaim their rightful place at top of the food chain.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 January 2016 - 06:05 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Heavies come at a higher opportunity cost (tonnage) than mediums, therefore they should be better overall.

um no. in quickplay there is no opportunity cost. all mechs have the same cost of 1 slot on the team.

theres only an opportunity cost in CW, which is quite frankly a broken system, because it further reinforces heavies being the best weight class by making assaults entirely not worth taking.



but irregardless of opportunity cost a medium should significantly outpace a heavy in terms of speed. the same way that a light significantly outpaces a medium. and the same way a heavy significantly outpaces an assault. the speed gap between mediums and heavies is much smaller than it should be.

these are the speeds that mechs should be going:
very light = 140-170
lights = 110-140
mediums = 80-110
heavies = 60-80
assaults = 50-70

heavies should not be going 90kph because it overlaps way too much with the speed range of mediums.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2016 - 06:13 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

but irregardless of opportunity cost a medium should significantly outpace a heavy in terms of speed. the same way that a light significantly outpaces a medium. and the same way a heavy significantly outpaces an assault.
the speed gap between mediums and heavies is much smaller than it should actually be.

ONLY because mediums are not choosing to take big enough engines. making 100kph+ mediums is easy, hard for heavies.

Why would it be fair for a Wolverine with a 300 engine (95kph with tweak) to outpace a Quickdraw with a 350 engine (94.5kph without tweak) despite the only 5 ton heavier quickdraw spending 6.5 more tons on its engine (assuming XL)?

Edit: i think your speed band for mediums is too slow. 80kph is slow af. 90+ imo

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 January 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

ONLY because mediums are not choosing to take big enough engines. making 100kph+ mediums is easy, hard for heavies.

absolutely wrong. its not easy. a medium has to devote a much higher percentage of its tonnage to engine to go its optimal speed than a heavy does.

for a 50 ton mech to go its optimal speed of 90kph it needs a 275XL engine which weighs 14 tons.
14/50 = 28% of its weight is engine

For a 75 ton heavy to go its optimal speed of about 70kph it needs a 300XL engine for 15.5 tons
15.5/75 = 21% of its weight is engine

So for a medium just to go its optimal speed its gotta spend 7% more of its tonnage on engine compared to a heavy.

Because of where heavies fall on the tonnage curve they make the most efficient use of their tonnage compared to other weight classes. Thats why taking speed tweak away from heavies would be fine.

Edited by Khobai, 19 January 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[General Taskeen]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Thank you for the answer FupDup that is interesting, And I'm sorry for asking, I'm not even remotely savvy to the equations, but going from 54 kph to 48 seems like a whole lot of rounding down rather than up, wouldn't it of been easier just to do a flat 54?

One would think right? It would have been easier, if this game wasn't designed at the core oddly at every turn. MW:LL for instance does use the extremely close speed of 53 km/h for an Atlas or Mauler as the top speed (and any Mech from BT with that speed). It's not impossible to do.

MacBeth said:

Actually... Why is speed tweak even a thing?

It's just another dumb grind feature that was implemented. You have to have "speed tweak" just to get an Atlas to get back up to its actual top speed, for example, when its supposed to have that speed by default. But, because the game allows crap like taking your engine out and putting in an absurdly huge Nascar engines so "all the things fast™", they pegged the speed down on some 'Mechs. The end result is turning a helluva lot of Mechs into what are dubbed Generic Mechbags, with most losing their individual speed brackets and individual builds already built into the design balance of BT.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 19 January 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

absolutely wrong. its not easy. a medium has to devote a much higher percentage of its tonnage to engine to go its optimal speed than a heavy does.

for a 50 ton mech to go its optimal speed of 90kph it needs a 275XL engine which weighs 14 tons.
14/50 = 28% of its weight is engine

For a 75 ton heavy to go its optimal speed of about 70kph it needs a 300XL engine for 15.5 tons
15.5/75 = 21% of its weight is engine


Because of where heavies fall on the tonnage curve they make the most efficient use of their tonnage compared to other weight classes. Thats why taking speed tweak away from heavies would be fine.

But that isnt going the SAME speed. Of course slower heavier mechs have more weapon tonnage.. The 75 ton mech to go 90kph would need an XL 375, 26.5 tons - 35.333% of its tonnage, and thats not even taking into account that many heavies need to run STD engines, and mediums almost always run XLs.

Also to go 90kph the medium only needs an XL250, not a 275, which is 12.5 tons, or 25%

What you are saying is, arbitrarily, 60, 65, 70 and 75 ton mechs should not get speed tweak, but all other tonnages should? If speed tweak didnt exist, would you be saying mediums and lights need a speed buff? Basically, the ratios between class speeds are 100% taken from TT values, no changes.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 January 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

why? light mechs arnt overpowered. nerfing them serves no purpose.

overpowered is the wrong way to look at it. At a certain speed and network latency level, lights teleport all across screens. When you are fighting off two lights who keep teleporting around each other and the environment, its frustrating to waste time shooting at them.