48 replies to this topic

[MacBeth]

No I'm not talking about the nerfs to the skill tree we experienced a little back, no my beef is the fact that many of the Assault mechs above 85 tons have had 2kph shaved off. The Atlas and Highlander for example, both have a top speed of 54 kph in the TT, however each of them before speed tweak only go 48.6 kph and even then with speed tweak, they only improve to 52.2kph... Unlike most Medium and Heavy mechs which get their canon speeds even before Speed tweak.

I suppose what I'm asking is, why do many of the Assault mechs lose some small but much desired speed?

Edited by MacBeth, 18 January 2016 - 01:58 PM.

[FupDup]

The Tabletop speeds on many mechs were rounded up because Tabletop only deals with whole numbers for movement. You can't move only half a hex or 3/4 of a hex; you had to always move exactly 1 full hex.

Specifically, the normal formula for a mech's running speed is walking speed * 1.5. So, a mech with a walking speed of 6 will have a running speed of 9. For the "lore" speed numbers, you took your walking or running points and then multiplied them by 10.8. So, a running speed of 9 hexes would appear as 97.2 kph in the "lore."

For mechs with a walking speed that is an odd number, such as the stock Atlas and Highlander with 3 walking points, they would normally only have 4.5 hexes of running instead of 5 hexes. Rounding them up gave them more efficiency than mechs with even numbers for walking speed.

The MWO values are the real, unrounded values displayed the way they were meant to be.

Edited by FupDup, 18 January 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Khobai]

The problem IMO is that heavy mechs move too fast. Heavies should be moving at a speed in between mediums and assaults. They should not be moving nearly as fast as mediums. Id like to see unique skill trees for each weight class. And just dont give speed tweak to heavies. The reign of fast heavies needs to end.

Id also like to see spawn locations and hillclimbing fixed for assaults. A slow assault should not be spawning on a far flank next to fast enemy mechs. And a slow assault should not be unable to walk up ramps, get stopped dead in its tracks by pebbles, or have to waddle its way up hills. Look I dont expect an assault mech to be a champion climber. But the way it is now is just stupid as !@#4.

Edited by Khobai, 18 January 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[DAYLEET]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

I suppose what I'm asking is, why do many of the Assault mechs lose some small but much desired speed?

I didnt feel the movement speed loss on assault, getting places and such. It's too low to notice.

But everything else related to movement speed like turning or reversing i still have to get used to. I played my Marauder all night yesterday in group play. I dont know how many times i hit reverse and didnt feel it so i hit reverse again and im not going backward wtf is going on so i panic trying to figure out wtf is going on while i keep moving toward a bunch of enemies alone and die or stand there while they all unload at me.

Edited by DAYLEET, 18 January 2016 - 02:18 PM.

[MacBeth]

Thank you for the answer FupDup that is interesting, And I'm sorry for asking, I'm not even remotely savvy to the equations, but going from 54 kph to 48 seems like a whole lot of rounding down rather than up, wouldn't it of been easier just to do a flat 54?

What about mechs such as the Hunchback and Timber wolf? Going stock with the Hunchback it's speed is 64kph, when you throw in speed tweak it becomes 69kph, where as the Timber wolf starts at 81, which like the Atlas and Highlander is lower than their canon speeds, but with speed tweak gets ramped up to 87 which is one kph faster than canon... Ya know its funny to think that they made a mech that powerful and fast... It's kind of stupid.

Why didn't Heavies and Mediums get the same level of treatment by rounding down?

Actually... Why is speed tweak even a thing?

Edited by MacBeth, 18 January 2016 - 02:47 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

The problem IMO is that heavy mechs move too fast. Heavies should be moving at a speed in between mediums and assaults. They should not be moving nearly as fast as mediums. Id like to see unique skill trees for each weight class. And just dont give speed tweak to heavies. The reign of fast heavies needs to end.

Id also like to see spawn locations and hillclimbing fixed for assaults. A slow assault should not be spawning on a far flank next to fast enemy mechs. And a slow assault should not be unable to walk up ramps, get stopped dead in its tracks by pebbles, or have to waddle its way up hills. Look I dont expect an assault mech to be a champion climber. But the way it is now is just stupid as !@#4.

People build their mediums slow because the extra firepower is usually worth it. Personally I like my mediums at 6/9 or better with an XL or 5/8 with a STD engine.

I'm particularly fond of the the Crab 20 with an XL350 for 7/11 speeds.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 18 January 2016 - 02:35 PM.

[Khobai]

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People build their mediums slow because the extra firepower is usually worth it

Doesnt matter how people build their mediums. The average speed of heavies should still be between the average speed of mediums and assaults.

Again heavies should not go nearly the same average speed as mediums. Heavies already have a huge firepower and armor advantage over mediums. They shouldnt get the same speed advantage too. Thats wrong.

Heavies should not really be able to go faster than 80kph. So if you took speed tweak away from heavies they would be going the speed they should be going.

Quote

Actually... Why is speed tweak even a thing?

Well lights and mediums definitely need speed tweak. You cant take it away from them or they go too slow.

heavies should not have speed tweak.

assaults probably could make do without speed tweak if spawn locations and hillclimbing were fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 18 January 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[MacBeth]

Honestly I think speed tweak should be tossed and flat values brought in. I can just picture each game designer at PGI staring daggers at me for so casually suggesting that much work like it is nothing.

I do personally agree Heavies are a bit too fast... But that's the clans for you.

As for light mechs, just give them the Urbie treatment, that mech shouldn't even dream of such speeds.

[Bilbo]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

Honestly I think speed tweak should be tossed and flat values brought in. I can just picture each game designer at PGI staring daggers at me for so casually suggesting that much work like it is nothing.

I do personally agree Heavies are a bit too fast... But that's the clans for you.

As for light mechs, just give them the Urbie treatment, that mech shouldn't even dream of such speeds.

Being able to make heavies move too fast was a thing before Clans came along. Clan heavies are just that way out of the box.

[Khobai]

Quote

As for light mechs, just give them the Urbie treatment, that mech shouldn't even dream of such speeds.

why? light mechs arnt overpowered. nerfing them serves no purpose.

Quote

Being able to make heavies move too fast was a thing before Clans came along. Clan heavies are just that way out of the box.

right but at least IS fast heavies were balanced by having XL engines and died when you blew out their side torsos. that prevented them from becoming prolific. whereas clan heavies combine firepower, durability, and speed in ideal proportions which makes them a HUGE problem.

so PGI nerfed ALL clan mechs just to take the clan heavies down a notch... which just resulted in clan players using clan heavies even more. like during tukayyid 2, clan heavies were used more than all other weight classes COMBINED.

Edited by Khobai, 18 January 2016 - 03:04 PM.

[MacBeth]

Haha, I only referenced clans because of the fire power they can bring with said speed. A fast heavy with IS tech is about as scary a standard Banshee 3E, just without the whole Mike Tyson punching power

Oh I'm not asking for slower light mechs, I meant give them the speed tweak speed as the standard, even if it isn't "lore" friendly. The Urbie is slower than most if not all Assault mechs, yet in MWO they move at the standard light speeds we see in this game.

Edited by MacBeth, 18 January 2016 - 03:03 PM.

[Bilbo]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

why? light mechs arnt overpowered. nerfing them serves no purpose.



right but at least IS fast heavies were balanced by having XL engines and died when you blew out their side torsos. that prevented them from becoming prolific. whereas clan heavies combine firepower, durability, and speed in ideal proportions which makes them a HUGE problem.

so PGI nerfed ALL clan mechs just to take the clan heavies down a notch... which just resulted in clan players using clan heavies even more. like during tukayyid 2, clan heavies were used more than all other weight classes COMBINED.

To be fair, heavy mechs are probably used at the same rate outside of the Tukayyid event, on both sides, if the queue percentages are any indication.

[MacBeth]

If I recall correctly, Assaults and Lights were the most used mechs pre Clan.

Back in the day it was an ocean of Assault mechs, Atlas, Highlanders and PPC Stalkers as far as the eye could see!

Edited by MacBeth, 18 January 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Bilbo]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

If I recall correctly, Assaults and Lights were the most used mechs pre Clan.

I remember when it was only Atlas, Highlanders and PPC Stalkers as far as the eye could see.

Before 3/3/3/3 you are probably correct.

[Khobai]

Quote

To be fair, heavy mechs are probably used at the same rate outside of the Tukayyid event, on both sides, if the queue percentages are any indication.

well the queue percentages include IS mechs as well as clan mechs. based on what ive seen, heavies on the whole are used about twice as much as the next most used class. but clan heavies are probably used more than all other weight classes combined lol.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Well, yeah.

Clan heavies have the speed of a medium, the armor of a heavy, and the firepower nearly of an IS Assault, all without death by XL ST loss.

They are the best class, period.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, yeah.

Clan heavies have the speed of a medium, the armor of a heavy, and the firepower nearly of an IS Assault, all without death by XL ST loss.

They are the best class, period.

right but PGI is treating the problem like its all clan mechs when its mostly just the heavies that are the problem.

so they nerfed all clan mechs which only made the disparity greater between IS mechs and non-heavy clan mechs.

[Barantor]

Khobai, on 18 January 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

right but PGI is treating the problem like its all clan mechs when its mostly just the heavies that are the problem.

so they nerfed all clan mechs which only made the disparity greater between IS mechs and non-heavy clan mechs.

All this because they looked at past games and it was all just a race to get to assaults.

I think if we could finally get torso speed not linked to engine size it would fix a lot of problems on a lot of chassis.

[crustydog]

They need to unlock the engines on the Clan mechs, and improve the engine ranges on all mechs. Mech design is a balancing act. You can go all energy, with lighter weapons, and a faster engine (with more internal heat sinks), and you trade off higher speed and no ammunition for very high heat. Conversely, you are supposed to be able to load up on heavy autocannons or lots of missiles with lots of ammo - Low heat and high DPS but you have to use smaller engines to do this, so slower mechs and ammo explosions.

The restrictions on engine size, including the Clan locked engines, are the greatest limiting factor to building effective mech builds, and these same restrictions force many mechs to be stuck in tier five. Similar concerns exist for hardpoints, such as with the Summoner or the Vindicator. Engine restrictions, and in general locked items such as jump jets etc, force certain mechs into certain roles due to build limitations, and if the mech cannot compete in that role, then it simply collects dust.

[FupDup]

MacBeth, on 18 January 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Thank you for the answer FupDup that is interesting, And I'm sorry for asking, I'm not even remotely savvy to the equations, but going from 54 kph to 48 seems like a whole lot of rounding down rather than up, wouldn't it of been easier just to do a flat 54?

What about mechs such as the Hunchback and Timber wolf? Going stock with the Hunchback it's speed is 64kph, when you throw in speed tweak it becomes 69kph, where as the Timber wolf starts at 81, which like the Atlas and Highlander is lower than their canon speeds, but with speed tweak gets ramped up to 87 which is one kph faster than canon... Ya know its funny to think that they made a mech that powerful and fast... It's kind of stupid.

Why didn't Heavies and Mediums get the same level of treatment by rounding down?

Actually... Why is speed tweak even a thing?

The formula for why the stock Atlas/Daishi move at 48 kph in MWO happens like this...


Given information:

• Engine: 300 rating
  
• Mech tonnage: 100 tons

Number crunching:

• 300 engine / 100 tons = 3 walking points
  
• 3 walking points * 1.5 (speed constant) = 4.5 running points
  
• 4.5 running points * 10.8 (kph per hex) = 48.6 kph max speed before Speed Tweak

It's all in the maths.


If we wanted to make the stock Atlas or whatever go at 54 kph, that would require a modification to some part of the equation. If we did that, then every other mech would also gain a bit of speed as well.

Edited by FupDup, 18 January 2016 - 08:22 PM.