99 replies to this topic

[Heuvadoches]

Map sucks. Needs cover.

[SteelBruiser]

The biggest problem I have with all the maps in this game...many times the players don't communicate, via mic or text...they don't talk. Yes a long walk with only the sound of your Mech's engine droning and the rhythmic clomping of the feet in your ears is boring. What you're supposed to be doing is communicating. On all the maps. The runs I enjoyed most are the ones where everyone was communicating what was going on in their little piece of the map. Where someone, anyone, took charge and helped direct the fight. When everyone is chatting together and doing more than just steering a mech, you'll find the match seems to end too soon. The map is just a space provided to test your skills. It's supposed to offer challenges and not necessarily the exact same challenges as all the other maps with only a change in paint. They're supposed to force the player to figure out how to win. Their not supposed to have a big "X" saying the battle will be here. Many of the maps here are boring after a short time...it's not the maps fault. The players have played the same way for so long, they automatically go to the same spot every single time they play that map. And I've noticed that one side always seems to just be waiting for the other side to show up and die. I always wondered how they got to those prime positions so quickly in order to anchor themselves. Even more I've wondered why the opposing side always runs to that same spot. So I asked...the response was "this where they always fight". And I asked the same question of several players on several maps. It's not the map...it's the players. The players have to change in order to change the game. If you're more comfortable playing the same way all the time then have fun...if you'd rather win more often, then you need to change the way you play. Whining to change the map to cookie cutter parameters doesn't make you a better player...it only makes another boring execution box. I would love to see maps that are more dynamic myself. It would be fun not knowing where every single tree or giant boulder will be. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Omi_]

F8Sealed, on 21 January 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Cowering. That's what your 100 ton atlas traveling 61 KPH is doing when he realizes that he can't get within 1000 m of the enemy team, when he go so fast.

If somebody wants a lesson on how to do this without crutches, message me. We'll drop in a 2-man.

[tokumboh]

This map requires teamwork and therein lies the problem. I think many people are hoping for a community which is sophisticated and in fairness we are not. Try asking where do we rally? or what is the plan or even on thing like HPG manifold do we take the platform and you are most likely get kill 'em all or shoot the red team. You need communication on this map and if you don't have a team that does you will get beat.

What I have found as I have tried to master the Warhammer is firstly. being a good player on a bad team on PH does not help the team. Secondly unlike any other map build does matter, it matters a lot. It feels like CW/Faction play you bring ERLL, ECM and Radar Dep is crucial and defined roles are key.

It means that for example following a push by an Atlas that has no clue would be fine in many maps here the push over a hill crest would lead to instant death. The team that does not use VIOP also will lose.

Essentially this map exposes how bad we are at team work. So part of me loves it and part of me absolutely hates it. It is not the map it's the people. People !!!!

[Aedwynn]

Sorry but "scouting is the key" is BS. Finding enemy isn't a problem, once first red triangle flashes, teams are effectively drawn to that point and clash. Problem however, is that flanking is effectively pointless on that map. You can detect enemy trying to flank easily, so they either have to go a long route (but time is crucial for successful flank), or risk being exposed and mowed down. So it ends in who has more range firepower and drops to simple jump-over-hill-and -shoot. That's the experience so far.
So most important part here is to cover your slow assaults so they aren't caught in the open and bring more ranged power. Nothing to praise developers for.

Edited by Aedwynn, 23 January 2016 - 05:42 AM.

[Miles McQuiston]

Best map to date.

Mecharrior needs expansive maps like this to create gameplay that sets it apart from other games. You can scout, you can brawl, you can snipe, and I dare say you can use indirect fire as well. If you have more maps like this it will redefine what a good build is and change the way MWO is played. Perhaps there is hope for the thinking man's shooter.

Keep maps like this coming.

[Miles McQuiston]

Tywren, on 22 January 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

As others have said, too big, at least for what it is. If it had more cover this size would be ok; if the map was reduced in size by 1/3, it would be ok even without more cover. But when you have matches where the teams spend over 10 minutes just trying to find each other (both sides were ECM heavy to counter LRMs) then you have a problem with the map.

You must not have had any scouts. 10 minutes seriously.

[Heuvadoches]

Everywhere.

[Aedwynn]

BAHS, on 23 January 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

You must not have had any scouts. 10 minutes seriously.

Obviously they had. When was last time you dropped without lights? When was last time you saw lights dancing around your team assaults not running around trying to spot enemy?
You are obviously blinded by "new map!" hype. Look at yourself. Give me example of any other map where you can't scout/brawl/snipe. You can do that on any map, although they do have tendencies to prefer certain style over the other. What exactly new this map brought on the table? Clarify it.

[DirePlayer]

Horrible map, end up pinned down by constant streams of LRM's even with radar deprivation. I'll quit AFK every time it comes up as its really not worth changing load out for 1 map.

[Wintersdark]

Aedwynn, on 23 January 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Sorry but "scouting is the key" is BS. Finding enemy isn't a problem, once first red triangle flashes, teams are effectively drawn to that point and clash. Problem however, is that flanking is effectively pointless on that map. You can detect enemy trying to flank easily, so they either have to go a long route (but time is crucial for successful flank), or risk being exposed and mowed down. So it ends in who has more range firepower and drops to simple jump-over-hill-and -shoot. That's the experience so far.
So most important part here is to cover your slow assaults so they aren't caught in the open and bring more ranged power. Nothing to praise developers for.

There is no open if you don't want to be in the open. There's LOTS of cover on the map of you chose to use it.

Unlike others maps, however, there isn't a single clash point. Battles tend to extend over a distance, because if you can get into your enemies trench, you can roll up along that trench.

Scouting IS key. A single red triangle is meaningless, unless the whole enemy team is tightly deathballed and that's often a losing strategy on this map. You don't want to scatter, but if you have a wider front than your enemy its much easier to wrap around them.

In this, the map is totally unlike all out other maps. The other maps have lots of terrain features that can be used to anchor your flank. Not here. This is the first PUG map where flanking is not a fools errand more often than not, because theres no period of non engagement in doing it. Flank on other maps and your only attacking from specific (expected) vectors, and you have to be out of the combat for a while to do it.

[Aedwynn]

Wintersdark, on 23 January 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

There is no open if you don't want to be in the open. There's LOTS of cover on the map of you chose to use it.

Unlike others maps, however, there isn't a single clash point. Battles tend to extend over a distance, because if you can get into your enemies trench, you can roll up along that trench.

Scouting IS key. A single red triangle is meaningless, unless the whole enemy team is tightly deathballed and that's often a losing strategy on this map. You don't want to scatter, but if you have a wider front than your enemy its much easier to wrap around them.

In this, the map is totally unlike all out other maps. The other maps have lots of terrain features that can be used to anchor your flank. Not here. This is the first PUG map where flanking is not a fools errand more often than not, because theres no period of non engagement in doing it. Flank on other maps and your only attacking from specific (expected) vectors, and you have to be out of the combat for a while to do it.

I think you are lying to yourself here.
1)A single red triangle is meaningless? Because you think it only matters if it's a deathball? But here you are, claiming that wide front is better because you can easily surround enemy. Haven't you noticed that in both cases even single red triangle means contact, and that means at least a group of enemies. Try spreading too far in small groups and you'll be caught one by one and decimated. Means it is never a good idea to spread too far. Means, red triangle = contact with main forces anyway because they won't be that far away. First contact defines where battle will be, so what if it happens 2 minutes later compared to other maps. Are you doing something extraordinary for those 2 minutes? No, you just walk. So how's scouting is more important here compared to any other map?
2) When you already engaged due to terrain features you already see enemy pretty well. There wasn't a single playthrough on this map when I wasn't able to spot a flanking. Why? Because they simply can't get to you without showing themselves at least once due to flatness of map and lack of LOS-breaking cover. How is scouting more important here than any other map? When you are already engaged, you can easily see all enemy forces.Yes, they will appear for moments while they peek over a hill, or run from crevice to crevice, but in the end they can't hide. No surprises here, at all. You see surprises and flanking here due to lone wolf syndrome most pug players have, coupled with tunnel vision it indeed creates good opportunities for flanking. But what it has to do with map? Nothing. So no reason to put emphasis on scouting here.
On any given map good light will try to spot/flank enemy forces. It's one of their jobs after all. But you people put here emphasis as if a separate class of "Scouts" exist, that was sitting in a mech bay, doing nothing. Untill a map arrives that actually makes them useful. It is very not so.
Plus people already talking about nascar'ing around empty center area. Because they don't really need a terrain feature to anchor their flank.

[oldradagast]

Tywren, on 22 January 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

So you're saying that running off the new players we just picked up with the Steam launch because of a map that requires CW level skills and equipment is a good idea. Good to know.

I've said it elsewhere, and i'll say it here; this map needs to be moved to the CW rotation.

Agreed. I'm sick of listening to the lousy reasoning defending this map. Aside from the usual "I like it, so if you don't you must suck" idiocy, we have the endless "it is a great map because it requires scouting, teamwork, Rader Derp, and ECM, and it's punishing of mistakes!" reasoning.

Nice... except NONE of those are positives for a map that is in the solo queue rotation. How can I have "teamwork" with 11 other random strangers? And, no, "getting on coms" doesn't magically fix the problem anymore than giving out coms magically allowed PUG's to stomp premade in CW, and it certainly doesn't magic up a bunch of scout mechs, LRM mechs, etc. on my team.

Truth be told, this map reminds way too much of CW and why I stopped playing it; there, your fate is basically determined by the matchmaker before the game begins. Up against PUG's? A good game as a PUG. Up against a 12-man? GGclose, with snark thrown in. Similar idea here: the map can only be won with a handful of valid tactics, and it requires scouting and is unforgiving of errors. If your random collection of 12 mechs meets those requirements, good for you. If it doesn't - and if the other team does - you basically lost before contact with the enemy was made.

It is essence of poor map design; bring X, Y, and Z in a randomly chosen group of mechs or lose.

Banish it to the group queue or CW, or FIX it so it isn't the mess it is today.

Edited by oldradagast, 25 January 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[Kurbeks]

Exactly as plp said map is fine, but only for Group or CW play. Where you know what kind of plp play and will bring ECM and scoutns and etc.

In random pug you might get team without ECM, or witout LRM boats.

So Russ said plp steam plp complained about LRM's, so yes we should make map where you are getting whacked by them. Don't play currentl Meta - ERLL, LL, LPL. Also get whacked. No Radar derp, or short range brawler mech - just click "exit match" ASAP. Seriously if i would get this map in my AC20 + 3 ASRM6 Orion, i would instant quit it.

And lastly not many Steam palyers have GXP to even unlock radar derp, and spend 5M on each mech for them is too much.

Modify this map for CW or move to group queue only.

[Wintersdark]

Pfft. I've had many perfectly successful matches on this map where we had zero LRM mechs vs several, and its been easy to cope with them.

Stay in cover till you're close, then rush hard - exactly the same approach you'd take vs an LRM heavy team on any other map, because LRM's are weak up close and inefficient at actually killing people. LRMs win because they scare people into backing off.

I can see this being a tier issue (No, before anyone goes there, I'm not saying "if you disagree with me you're bad!") But rather that LRM's have always been very strong against weaker players, if you're playing in t5-3 theres a decent chance you've got a few to a bunch of players who are simply easy pickings for LRM mechs.

At least at T2, and I'd assume T1 as well, while LRM's aren't utterly garbage there, they are still decidedly weaker than laser vomit meta mechs who can peek over/around a ridge, drop a massive alpha and be back in cover before a hostile LRM mech can get a lock... And utilize the low temperatures of the map to cool faster.

Yes, it sucks to be in a short ranged, slow brawler. Much like how it sucks to be an LRM mech in dense urban environments where there's massive cover everywhere. If you take a very specialized mech, you have to understand it won't be equally useful everywhere.

Change your loadout to be more flexible and account for varied battlefields, because they are a reality.

[Aedwynn]

Wintersdark, on 24 January 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

Yes, it sucks to be in a short ranged, slow brawler. Much like how it sucks to be an LRM mech in dense urban environments where there's massive cover everywhere. If you take a very specialized mech, you have to understand it won't be equally useful everywhere.

Change your loadout to be more flexible and account for varied battlefields, because they are a reality.

You see, if you go for diversified mechs, you won't be flexible. You'll be useless. I also don't want to bring tiers here, but to be experienced player and still do not know this? Choose your role and master it, that's the point. After that even unfavorable maps aren't so bad. Surely it sucks to be LRM boat on map with lots of cover. Difference between good player and bad player is that bad player will waste ammo hitting terrain, while good player will move closer to targets, after all, LRMS are as good from 200m as they are from 800. Surely you won't be as effective as on more open map, but enemy team will face same issues.
But if you go for generalized? What's the point of single LRM10? On it's own it won't deal much damage and can be stopped by single AMS. If all team is such generalized builds, you'll had a hard time syncing it in proper salvo's, as everyone will fire at his own pace. That only eases things for AMS defense. Effective LRM striking is all about timed salvos, so more rockets pass AMS.
Same goes for any other scenario: with generalized build you won't be able to do much damage from long range, and every time you peek out of cover you'll be receiving more damage than delivering.
All-round is good on paper only - the most significant problem is that it requires tremendous coordination to be effective, otherwise it will loose to a team of specialized mechs even if some of them can't perform well on current map.

[B0oN]

Still like the map .
If others don´t ... I´m okay with that .

What grinds my wheels in the "discussions" about this map is the absolute standstill of stale deathball gameplay some players are postulating, while others are arguing for more varied tactics and more challenging gameplay through mapdesign as exhibited by Polar Highlands .

Let me explain it another way :
Would you guys really eat the same stuff day in, day out ?
Or would you change your meals from one end of the spectrum (self-made food) to the other (some good ´ole fastfood) to have some kind of balance in your nommings ?

I´d rather go with some variance ... I mean, c´mon, Romans over 1500 years ago already said "VARIATIO DELECTAT" ... and there is more truth to that than anyone could ever deny, ´cause these sandalwearing dudes knew their stuff ... in and out .

2kittencents with some yarn attached for y´all tae play with

[Aedwynn]

Rad Hanzo, on 24 January 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

Still like the map .......

I´d rather go with some variance ... I mean, c´mon, Romans over 1500 years ago already said "VARIATIO DELECTAT" ... and there is more truth to that than anyone could ever deny, ´cause these sandalwearing dudes knew their stuff ... in and out .

2kittencents with some yarn attached for y´all tae play with

It's good to have variance, but liking a map just because it's new and broke your dull repetitive play on old maps is one thing. Liking it because it is a well-designed map, that is in a proper place for proper players is another. If you check comments you'll notice that every second praiser says: "it's a refreshing break from old maps".

[Wintersdark]

Aedwynn, on 24 January 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

You see, if you go for diversified mechs, you won't be flexible. You'll be useless. I also don't want to bring tiers here, but to be experienced player and still do not know this? Choose your role and master it, that's the point.

Diversified mechs are not useless, they are not as good at a particular range band as a specialist mech. Not as good != useless, so first: Use the correct terminology, don't exaggerate.

Now, we're talking solo pug play here, not [at least big group] group queue, not CW. If you want to be successful in solo play, you MUST be flexible. If you decide to chose to be a slow brawler, you've made a poor choice when you know that there are places you'll need to fight where a slow brawler will be ineffective. In that case, you chose that build knowing it would be ineffective in certain situations. Success in the solo queue is entirely based on being able to be effective in any situation.

"Choose your role and master it, that's the point" - This is highly misleading. At best, pre-PH, you want to choose your range band and focus on it. But this map changes things. Your issue here is you're refusing to accept that it changes the existing paradigm and simply saying it's bad because what worked before doesn't always work here.

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After that even unfavorable maps aren't so bad. Surely it sucks to be LRM boat on map with lots of cover. Difference between good player and bad player is that bad player will waste ammo hitting terrain, while good player will move closer to targets, after all, LRMS are as good from 200m as they are from 800. Surely you won't be as effective as on more open map, but enemy team will face same issues.

Exactly the same applies on Polar Highlands.

On any map, you should rarely be lurming from over 500m; realistically within 200-400. PH allows longer ranged lurming to be marginally more effective, but only against poor players (because you shouldn't be giving up LOS for LRM durations at such long ranges on PH.

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But if you go for generalized? What's the point of single LRM10? On it's own it won't deal much damage and can be stopped by single AMS. If all team is such generalized builds, you'll had a hard time syncing it in proper salvo's, as everyone will fire at his own pace. That only eases things for AMS defense. Effective LRM striking is all about timed salvos, so more rockets pass AMS.

Wait, so there's AMS? Then where's the complaint about LRM's at all? If there's more than 3 AMS, LRM's are totally irrelevant.

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Same goes for any other scenario: with generalized build you won't be able to do much damage from long range, and every time you peek out of cover you'll be receiving more damage than delivering.
All-round is good on paper only - the most significant problem is that it requires tremendous coordination to be effective, otherwise it will loose to a team of specialized mechs even if some of them can't perform well on current map.

It's not a team of generalized mechs, it's that short ranged mechs really ought to include some at least medium ranged weapons. If you chose not to, you're ineffectiveness on a map like polar highlands is entirely your own fault because you made a poor choice. You COULD have brought a PPC, or a large laser or two; weapons still usable up close but extending your reach.

I'm not saying you should run TT mixed builds, and I'm pretty sure you know that (or you're actually really new and have no clue at all, and are simply parroting things other people have told you) but having a build limited to 300m and that is slow is poor planning, it's a poor choice. It's a failure in the mechlab, and 100% the player's own failure.

It's a build that requires closing with your opponent to be effective, but that is unable to close effectively. On small maps, that's a non-issue because, well, the maps are small. It's impossible to effectively avoid those slow brawlers. But expecting all combats to take place only in small enclosed areas is, honestly, ridiculous.

So, taking this to "All 'Round" builds is a strawman.

[Aedwynn]

Wintersdark, on 24 January 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Diversified mechs are not useless, they are not as good at a particular range band as a specialist mech. Not as good != useless, so first: Use the correct terminology, don't exaggerate.

Do not purposely mislead others. I never said "Not as good = useless", so first: do not put false words in other people's mouth. I said that they perform worse than specialized mechs, and explained why in PUG it leads to them being useless. That's different.

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If you want to be successful in solo play, you MUST be flexible... Success in the solo queue is entirely based on being able to be effective in any situation.

I am playing solo queue all the time and I assure you, the moment I stopped running "flexible" mechs I saw a 2-3 times boost in effectiveness. When I was running on diversified heavy, I was struggling to kill even one enemy. Why? If you have 1 LRM in your diversified build, you don't have much ammo and lack ability to penetrate simplest AMS. You lack artemis guidance and other support stuff like probe for example. You can't take modules benefitting LRMS either. IF you got long range weapons too, you'll be hard pressed to use them and LRMS at same time as they generate quite a lot of heat, and often will require to target different enemies. Meaning you won't be able to properly realize your potential in any given scenario. Because it is SOLO PUG where you won't be able to properly coordinate nor your long range poking, nor your salvos, nor your short range strikes. Every time you'll try to do something you'll be facing enemy that does it better. A combination of focused weaponry , supported by quirks, modules and consumables create a cumulative effect, resulting in far better results than diversified mech. LRM+Artemis+Beagle+Tag+Target Decay+LRM Reload. You can't create such combos on diversified mech.

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"Choose your role and master it, that's the point" - This is highly misleading. At best, pre-PH, you want to choose your range band and focus on it. But this map changes things. Your issue here is you're refusing to accept that it changes the existing paradigm and simply saying it's bad because what worked before doesn't always work here.

Go learn how alpha strike builds differ from DPS builds. Then try reducing roles to "range bands" again. You clearly do not know what roles are.

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Exactly the same applies on Polar Highlands.

Which means you have nothing to praise PH for here.

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Wait, so there's AMS? Then where's the complaint about LRM's at all? If there's more than 3 AMS, LRM's are totally irrelevant.

So you have nothing to say about "diversified" mech not having enough firepower to penetrate even basic AMS? That's why you derail topic here?

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It's not a team of generalized mechs, it's that short ranged mechs really ought to include some at least medium ranged weapons. If you chose not to, you're ineffectiveness on a map like polar highlands is entirely your own fault because you made a poor choice. You COULD have brought a PPC, or a large laser or two; weapons still usable up close but extending your reach.

1 LL or PPC won't help you at all.
Somehwere here you forgot that world does not revolve around PH. Surprisingly, there is a bunch of maps where you can brawl effectively. Having problem on one map but doing great on 4 other? Why would anyone worry to diversify their loadout for that one map?

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I'm not saying you should run TT mixed builds, and I'm pretty sure you know that (or you're actually really new and have no clue at all, and are simply parroting things other people have told you) but having a build limited to 300m and that is slow is poor planning, it's a poor choice. It's a failure in the mechlab, and 100% the player's own failure.

Tell that to LBX loaded DWF brawler that obliterates any mech in a matter of seconds. Just properly choose where to go and where to fight.
But judging from your comments you won't understand a bit, as you just singlehandedly declared quite a few succesfull heavy/assault brawlers nonexistant. Maybe it's you who should stop parroting stuff and learn a bit?

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It's a build that requires closing with your opponent to be effective, but that is unable to close effectively. On small maps, that's a non-issue because, well, the maps are small. It's impossible to effectively avoid those slow brawlers. But expecting all combats to take place only in small enclosed areas is, honestly, ridiculous.

That's your problem. You do not understand that small maps have nothing to do with being able to close on target with slow brawler. Any mech that is noticeably faster than said brawler can easily outrun them and keep their distance on any map you call "small". Then why said brawlers are used to great success?