99 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Aedwynn, on 24 January 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Do not purposely mislead others. I never said "Not as good = useless", so first: do not put false words in other people's mouth. I said that they perform worse than specialized mechs, and explained why in PUG it leads to them being useless. That's different.

You're the one who said "useless", not me. Even in your ridiculously harped on example of a single LRM rack, if you did NOTHING at all with that LRM rack, your mech would still not be useless. You're the one misleading here.

You seem to have an specific idea of the sort of build I'm speaking of, and are basically just strawmanning it. At no point did I say "just slap an LRM10 on the mech". When I said flexible, I didn't mean "slap a single LRM launcher on the mech". A single LRM launcher isn't going to do much of anything in most circumstances. IS side particularly, LRM's are poor secondary weapons because they're too heavy. IIRC, I said a PPC, or a pair of LL's or some such. Clan side, LRM's are certainly usable (a pair of 10's is very easy to get good usefulness out of, for example). The reasoning is this: Those longer range weapons still work at close range. Your brawler can still fire them up close. So, you can stick with your team, and still contribute until you can get into a more ideal range band, which is more effective than being ***king useless because your 60kph 270m range mech is actually useless on that map.

Quote

I am playing solo queue all the time and I assure you, the moment I stopped running "flexible" mechs I saw a 2-3 times boost in effectiveness. When I was running on diversified heavy, I was struggling to kill even one enemy. Why? If you have 1 LRM in your diversified build, you don't have much ammo and lack ability to penetrate simplest AMS. You lack artemis guidance and other support stuff like probe for example. You can't take modules benefitting LRMS either. IF you got long range weapons too, you'll be hard pressed to use them and LRMS at same time as they generate quite a lot of heat, and often will require to target different enemies. Meaning you won't be able to properly realize your potential in any given scenario.

Again, why are you focusing on LRM's? You can do that, but it's more fiddly. So, stop with the "Derp, one LRM launcher" strawman.

Artemis is a mixed bag at the best of times even for a dedicated LRM mech, and not a clear upgrade all things considered - whether one should use it or not is very debateable and depends highly on play style.

I appreciate your efforts to educate me, though. Clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Tell me, how long have you been doing this for? How many drops do you have? Want to show your tier rating?

Quote

Because it is SOLO PUG where you won't be able to properly coordinate nor your long range poking, nor your salvos, nor your short range strikes. Every time you'll try to do something you'll be facing enemy that does it better. A combination of focused weaponry , supported by quirks, modules and consumables create a cumulative effect, resulting in far better results than diversified mech. LRM+Artemis+Beagle+Tag+Target Decay+LRM Reload. You can't create such combos on diversified mech.

Go learn how alpha strike builds differ from DPS builds. Then try reducing roles to "range bands" again. You clearly do not know what roles are.

Clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Except... wait, how many drops do you have? How long have you been doing this for? What tier are you at?

I understand alpha and dps builds, and basically every kind of build you want to discuss. I get it. I've been doing this a long time, have close to 7000 drops since the new stat system went into place and likely over 8000 overall. Most of those, incidentally, in the solo queue.

I get it. I understand the solo queue very well, and how to be successful there.

Here's the thing. You're clearly just not getting what I'm saying about a flexible loadout. I'm not saying to run 8 different weapon systems. I'm saying you need to have some form of weaponry that will be effective at ~500 meters, or the speed to close the distance fast enough. What you CAN'T have is a slow mech with <300m weaponry and expect to be successful as maps get larger.

This is typically acheived by having Large Pulses or Large Lasers alongside smaller lasers. It's just two different weapon types, but it works just fine, and ensures you can engage at any range you're likely to be stuck at (if you can't get within 500m on PH without giving up LOS, you have other issues.

What it means is, while it was effective back in the day, a MLas/AC20/SRM6 brawler that moves 60kph is a bad build, unless it's in a premade team built with that in mind.

Note that this isn't a random selection of weapons. You want complementary weapons, ones that will work together. But you NEED to have some that can reach far enough that you can do something when at longer ranges.

Quote

So you have nothing to say about "diversified" mech not having enough firepower to penetrate even basic AMS? That's why you derail topic here?

1 LL or PPC won't help you at all.

1 LL? Not much. 2? Yeah, 2 LL's, or 2 LPL's can be very effective. Even on a short ranged mech. They're still usable up close, and they're able to reach out and do something when outside of brawling range.

So, no, you don't want a single LRM rack. A clan mech can get by with a pair of 10's or 15's, though, situationally. They're cool, can be fired effectively in a brawl, and can do reasonable damage at long range. My LRM30/5ERSL Mad Dog posted some 30 consecutive games all with 400+ damage and on the losses, 600+ on the wins, at T2 - and that was before PH dropped. So, clearly, 30 tubes is more than enough. And that's chainfiring, whereas a pair of 10's or 15's will be groupfired.

Quote

Somehwere here you forgot that world does not revolve around PH. Surprisingly, there is a bunch of maps where you can brawl effectively. Having problem on one map but doing great on 4 other? Why would anyone worry to diversify their loadout for that one map?

Quote

Tell that to LBX loaded DWF brawler that obliterates any mech in a matter of seconds. Just properly choose where to go and where to fight.

An LBX loaded Direwolf is a bad direwolf. Seriously. Mount UAC's, gauss, lasers, but not LBX. LBX is bad. In all cases, LBX is just bad. The only valid reason to take LBX autocannons is because they look and sound awesome (a valid reason, if from a stylistic but not gameplay viewpoint). Under no circumstances is the LBX the strong choice for a Direwolf or - for that matter - any mech without truly huge LBX weapon quirks.

Quote

But judging from your comments you won't understand a bit, as you just singlehandedly declared quite a few succesfull heavy/assault brawlers nonexistant.

Successful on those older maps. Not so successful on PH, or any future maps of similar size. I certainly didn't say they were nonexistant. Although, I'll note, if you go look on Metamechs, you'll find 99% of builds are either medium or long range, or short range and fast. They're not slow and short ranged. There's a reason.

Quote

Maybe it's you who should stop parroting stuff and learn a bit?
That's your problem. You do not understand that small maps have nothing to do with being able to close on target with slow brawler. Any mech that is noticeably faster than said brawler can easily outrun them and keep their distance on any map you call "small". Then why said brawlers are used to great success?

Small maps have everything to do with your ability to close, because this isn't a 1v1 game. Your team moves together, their team moves together, you fight. It's not a matter of chasing one mech around in the majority of cases, it's a matter of pushing together solidly. In small maps, there's nowhere really to go, and while one mech may try to get range, his allies all won't.

Further, on small maps, there's only one or two common engagement points. You just have to get there, and they'll come to meet you. This is why, when we have the original maps (where the old Forest Colony and River City where *tiny*) and none of these alpine/tourmaline+ sized maps, when the old caustic was the biggest map) having a 50kph assault was perfectly fine. You could get anywhere you needed to go fast enough.

That isn't the case anymore. A direwolf mastered is considered too slow by most players now, and is an active disadvantage on several maps as it's so damned slow. It can't respond as well to changing battlefield conditions, and is likely to be isolated or simply unable to get it's guns somewhere useful.

As maps have grown, minimal speed requirements have as well. PH is just an extension of this, and the point where being that slow is really a problem. It's a manageable one when you've long ranged weaponry (see: gauss/uac5 dwf's, lrm mechs, etc) but if you're slow AND short ranged, you may have a hell of a wait to see combat. As a result, your team is basically playing 11v12 because you chose to be literally useless for much of the match.

[Aedwynn]

Again, you missed the point with useless. I said useless in PUG. Doesn't mean generally useless. Get it under your skull at last. If you want to brag about experience I play since 2012. Not very often, but enough. So please stick to facts, and not "I got 1 more drop than you" kiddy bragging.
It's obvious you do not understand my point.
LRM is just example, that you can extrapolate to any other weapon. Meaning, youd do not bring a great bunch of weapons to be equally effective at any given range, but that's what you said to do in PUG:

Wintersdark, on 24 January 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Now, we're talking solo pug play here, not [at least big group] group queue, not CW. If you want to be successful in solo play, you MUST be flexible. ...
"Choose your role and master it, that's the point" - This is highly misleading. At best, pre-PH, you want to choose your range band and focus on it. But this map changes things.

Your words, not mine. You propose to stop focusing on range and be effective at any.
Now you claim that LL's are effective at all ranges. Sure, damage is same within optimal range. My question then, why brawlers don't run around full of LL's/AC2's? They will be effective at all ranges then, no? That would be a new universal build fit for every occasion, no?
If you look at most IS mechs stock loadout they are essense of flexible and diversified, but for some reason each of them performs better when tuned to specific role.

So you admit, that closing in on slow mech is about team play, not 1vs1. Now re-read what you wrote and you will understand that "problem with being slow on big map" stems from PUGs leaving assaults behind due to bad teamplay. On small maps you won't fall back far, so it is okay in most cases. On big maps indeed, team may run far away leaving you far from battle and potentially a target for Light's attack. And because you don't know what to do with it you claim going faster is the only option.

[Aedwynn]

That's why you contradict yourself quite often: You say slow brawlers are banished from PH and put DWF as example, noting it will lag behind and won't contribute to battle. But here is a thought: Take long range DWF, will it be useful in said conditions? It will lag the same way behind. Ranged weaponry? But most engagements on this map is already long range, meaning your ranged DWF is out of optimal range and can't contribute much either. Meaning, by your logic any slow mech is banished from new paradigm of larger maps regardless of their loadout. That would be a strange move to do, no? While in fact as many people noted it boils down to simply map requiring you to stick to your assaults. That's why people say it belongs in CW/group queue, not PUGs.
Although I must notice I've been playing mostly DWF's on PH lately and see no real issue with their speed, more issue with team. Something I can one way or another deal with.
Also specifically for you, I did a run on diversified heavy brawler (fast enough to close in). By your claim, putting 2 LL's it makes me useful at range combat as well. Guess what, stars aligned and I was on a side battling effectively 1vs1 against ranged poker. So I tried using my range potential against him while closing in. As a result I took more damage than him. Why? Having 1-2 LL's does not make you good at long range combat, meaning you engage in battle on terms favorable to your enemy, something you shouldn't do. Meaning I should've avoided ranged exchange of blows and used cover to close in undamaged and obliterate him at range favorable to me. So it means those 2 LL's (if I bring them for the sake of ranged poking only) are too situational.

Edited by Aedwynn, 25 January 2016 - 05:37 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Aedwynn, on 25 January 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Again, you missed the point with useless. I said useless in PUG. Doesn't mean generally useless. Get it under your skull at last.

Still "Useless in PUG": its not. Sub optimal, perhaps, but not useless. English, how does it work?!

Quote

If you want to brag about experience I play since 2012. Not very often, but enough. So please stick to facts, and not &quot;I got 1 more drop than you&quot; kiddy bragging.

I've also played since 2012, and consistently since then. Check my profile.

It's not " kiddie bragging"; you claimed I had no idea what I was talking about. Given the massive amount of experience - and I'm perfectly willing to share stats if you like - clearly I know what I'm talking about. You can't play this much, spend this much time around and on the forums, and learn nothing.

Quote

It's obvious you do not understand my point.
LRM is just example, that you can extrapolate to any other weapon. Meaning, youd do not bring a great bunch of weapons to be equally effective at any given range, but that's what you said to do in PUG:

what? No, you harped on about LRM's because one LRM won't do much through AMS. That's true, and that's why it's ineffective to bring a single LRM rack.

I also did not say to be equally effective at any range. I said "be at least able to contribute at roughly 500m or be fast enough to close the distance effectively[/b]. Short range is fine, IF you're fast enough to use it.

Quote

Your words, not mine. You propose to stop focusing on range and be effective at any.

No. That's not what I said at all. Do you have trouble reading? I said be able to contribute at around 500m or be fast enough; just not to be slow AND short ranged. I've said that in every post in this discussion .

Quote

Now you claim that LL's are effective at all ranges. Sure, damage is same within optimal range. My question then, why brawlers don't run around full of LL's/AC2's?

Because AC/2's are terrible weapons, and before PH it was fine to be slow and brawly. Even so, look on Metamechs, and count how many mechs are both slow AND brawly, and that's very much pre-polar Highlands. VERY few are. Some, but not many at all.

And no, LL isn't effective at all ranges, but it can lend fire at 500m and do something worthwhile. A pair is fine.

Quote

They will be effective at all ranges then, no? That would be a new universal build fit for every occasion, no?
If you look at most IS mechs stock loadout they are essense of flexible and diversified, but for some reason each of them performs better when tuned to specific role.

Stock loadouts are bad, very bad. Red herring. And still, IM NOT SAYING TO GLOM HALF A DOZEN DISPARATE WEAPONS ONTO A MECH! Jesus Christ.

Quote

So you admit, that closing in on slow mech is about team play, not 1vs1. Now re-read what you wrote and you will understand that &quot;problem with being slow on big map&quot; stems from PUGs leaving assaults behind due to bad teamplay. On small maps you won't fall back far, so it is okay in most cases. On big maps indeed, team may run far away leaving you far from battle and potentially a target for Light's attack. And because you don't know what to do with it you claim going faster is the only option.

Going faster isn't the only option, but its the best option. Because your in a team game, PUG or no, and you have to work with what you have. Choosing to be slow and short ranged on a large map with players who may abandon you makes YOU the one making the poor choice. It means you're the bad player.

Of course, bringing a long ranged DWF to PH can work, but in a PUG you're better off just not bringing a DWF at all.

---

Look, forget the rest. It boils down to this:

Just because a build was good doesn't mean it'll always be good. Things change: maps are added, mechanics change. This alters what is, and is not, a good build.

If a formerly good build doesn't work well on a new map, that means that build isn't as good anymore, not that the map is bad. We fight in ever more varied environments, and need to adapt to them because they aren't going to go away.

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 January 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[CD0UG]

worst map in the game, i dunno what they were thinking, hopefully they don't make a map even remotly close to soemething like this again lol

[tokumboh]

Aedwynn, on 23 January 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Sorry but "scouting is the key" is BS. Finding enemy isn't a problem, once first red triangle flashes, teams are effectively drawn to that point and clash. Problem however, is that flanking is effectively pointless on that map. You can detect enemy trying to flank easily, so they either have to go a long route (but time is crucial for successful flank), or risk being exposed and mowed down. So it ends in who has more range firepower and drops to simple jump-over-hill-and -shoot. That's the experience so far.
So most important part here is to cover your slow assaults so they aren't caught in the open and bring more ranged power. Nothing to praise developers for.

Actually this is why scouting is key, The centre of the map is relatively flat and but I have seen good team work able to traverse it and flank the enemy. I have seen light harass from the left and the assaults come baring down on the right both of them happen to be wins. Most of my losses and ROFLSTOMPs have been scouts find the enemy and engage and not report how many where they are and ecm not giving cover to assault or the team not waiting for the assaults, Yeah you get to see some red doritos but with lots of people under ECM heading to help will get you running into the enemy in no time, It is hard to get someone in my tier (yes I am a tier 5 ) into a position to win and mainly because we can be pretty dumb (me included) and not very communicative some of that could be the fact we may be expecting people to speak English ( my french is Ok but polish and Russian are tough).

PH is a great map because it somewhat different to other maps, it means movement to contact for those in the military which is a tough battle drill to learn and this is a very good military simulation, to teach that I would add

[tokumboh]

Wintersdark, on 24 January 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

Pfft. I've had many perfectly successful matches on this map where we had zero LRM mechs vs several, and its been easy to cope with them.

Stay in cover till you're close, then rush hard - exactly the same approach you'd take vs an LRM heavy team on any other map, because LRM's are weak up close and inefficient at actually killing people. LRMs win because they scare people into backing off.

I can see this being a tier issue (No, before anyone goes there, I'm not saying "if you disagree with me you're bad!") But rather that LRM's have always been very strong against weaker players, if you're playing in t5-3 theres a decent chance you've got a few to a bunch of players who are simply easy pickings for LRM mechs.

At least at T2, and I'd assume T1 as well, while LRM's aren't utterly garbage there, they are still decidedly weaker than laser vomit meta mechs who can peek over/around a ridge, drop a massive alpha and be back in cover before a hostile LRM mech can get a lock... And utilize the low temperatures of the map to cool faster.

Yes, it sucks to be in a short ranged, slow brawler. Much like how it sucks to be an LRM mech in dense urban environments where there's massive cover everywhere. If you take a very specialized mech, you have to understand it won't be equally useful everywhere.

Change your loadout to be more flexible and account for varied battlefields, because they are a reality.

Though I agree with your post I fear this will be flame wars since this map conflicts me too so my 5 point about this

1. Yes this map requires co ordination of team and tactics and that is by far the biggest issue as I have said before we are not that sophisticated as a community despite what we think.

2. As a tier 5 I have noticed that a large part of the community do not do team communication or team tactics. I don't believe individual action wins on this map and from what I have seen it is much less individual than team swaying the win and yes I have seen a team win with DWF and AS in their Assaults lance, we waited for them( I know it sounds really simple, but try getting people to wait for assaults on any map, let alone PH, TD or AP it is why my ATLAS is languishing in its mechbay)

3. This is but one map in the style and yet as a person whom is tier 5 I see it upvoted a lot so either people don't care about any difficulties it presents and play it anyway, like it because it is shiny and new or just don't care they like running around in big stompy mechs shooting other big stompy mechs

4. My own personal experience mastering my warhammers was that I did better but got lower damage on PH than other maps. When I took a build which had better reach Guass/AC20/AC10/AC5 and 2 ERLL, I would get more hits at range but ended up with lower damage, most hits being at extreme range, than when I took 5ML and AC20. I have won with both but I think this map favours the longer range builds. And yes I tend to suck at longer range stuff

5 Lastly Maps of this nature sometimes needs patience, I fear that we don't have much patience to allow the battle to develop. The matches I have won have been one where we have been patient found the enemy marshalled everyone and then hit hard. I have seen scouts find the enemy and make contact and everyone rushing in a full speed which mean that the order of death is lights followed by mediums then heavies and then assaults. And yes it is comical. Partly it is because we reward damage and kills too highly and that is why you have lights with bigger alphas than some heavies. We need to reward more than kill and damage and indeed this map may force a rethink.

I understand the arguments regarding this should be a FP/CW map but actually I believe we need a map like this to progress with and actually more maps like this. FP/CW is essentially maps like this with a set of funnel points. I personally believe that all in all there is a single approach to most of CW maps yet this required decisions at the beginning before you decide to move and good decisions not only as individuals but also as a team. We should not shy away from that. I accept that ROFLSTOMPing will happen in the same way as I accept it if I play CW/FP but I hope to learn how to play the game better and I feel that what people are saying is that their old skills and builds are not enough you cannot be a good individual alone on this map and even if you are the match can turn and you get much lower scores that you would with the same team on any other map. We need to accept this map is VERY different, It is not bad different but different.

As to this map I just have to say I love it and hate it all at once, there are times that I want it on the board to vote on and times when I have had a series of bad games I hate the sight of it, but when played well it is a delight, win or lose.

Edited by tokumboh, 25 January 2016 - 03:10 PM.

[ShinVector]

Aedwynn, on 23 January 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Sorry but "scouting is the key" is BS.

If you says so...

I guess knowing where this enemy is +1 min before hand so, your team can figure out how to approach and deal with them is useless.

Oh look... And enemy cap attempt on Polar... Obliterated.. Those useless light mechs..


*Seriously.. The scout role shines in this map in particular.

[oldradagast]

ShinVector, on 25 January 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

If you says so...

I guess knowing where this enemy is +1 min before hand so, your team can figure out how to approach and deal with them is useless.

Oh look... And enemy cap attempt on Polar... Obliterated.. Those useless light mechs..

*Seriously.. The scout role shines in this map in particular.

Yep, and if your random, luck of the draw Solo queue group happens to have scouts, good for you. If not, you're hosed. Same idea with long-range mechs, etc. on this map. That's why I hate it. You need X, Y, and Z to win - and then you get handed a random pile of mechs with zero coordination or theme to their builds and abilities as your team. On Polar Highlands, more than any other map in the game, that type of "mistake" will cost you the game. And yet, you have no control over it.

Unfortunately, too many players are in love with this goofy idea of all maps requiring "lots of teamwork" and "dedicated mech builds with specific roles." And not one of them seems to understand why requiring such complexity in behavior and specific mechs is a total failure of an idea in the public queues where you have NO CONTROL over the slap-dash pile of random mechs that make up your team. It should be common sense - people hate losing when they can't control the situation, so why create a map where you can easily lose based solely on the random team mates you draw? - but they don't get it. There are too enamored of their Battletech simulation fantasies, where matches take hours to play out, the slightest mistake costs you everything, and every mech and movement must be perfectly coordinated to succeed, to understand how terrible such a game design would be in reality, where "teams" consist of random mechs piloted by people with zero previous experience working together as a team.

One would think the failures of CW, a game format that comes closer to matching their vision, would have taught them how such game mode design is no fun for the general public and is total failure without absolute control over every element of your team, but they just don't get it, and now they want to ram-rod that poor concept down the throats of the public queue players. Not interested!

Edited by oldradagast, 26 January 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[Calebos]

Topology of terrain in this map sucks heavilly. It looks like 3 years old child work ...

[Tywren]

Wintersdark, on 25 January 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Going faster isn't the only option, but its the best option. Because your in a team game, PUG or no, and you have to work with what you have. Choosing to be slow and short ranged on a large map with players who may abandon you makes YOU the one making the poor choice. It means you're the bad player.

This would be a valid argument if mech selection occurred after the map vote, but it doesn't. What is actually happening, is that the players are choosing to bring builds that are at least moderately effective, if not outright godlike on literally every other map in pub que, and then loosing the map/mode vote and getting put on the one map where their build blows goats. That is not making a poor choice, and it most definitely is not being a bad player. At best that's playing odds that are in your favor, and loosing.

[tokumboh]

Tywren, on 26 January 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

This would be a valid argument if mech selection occurred after the map vote, but it doesn't. What is actually happening, is that the players are choosing to bring builds that are at least moderately effective, if not outright godlike on literally every other map in pub que, and then loosing the map/mode vote and getting put on the one map where their build blows goats. That is not making a poor choice, and it most definitely is not being a bad player. At best that's playing odds that are in your favor, and loosing.

Ok I undrstand we don't get a choice of what to bring when and yes that sucks but actually the point is that in a team game do you leave your team mates behind or use what you have to the best ability you have?

The answer it seem from the community that this is too hard to work out. IMHO and that is why games on PH suck. I also will add TD and AP also have similar issues.

Part of the problem is that take any map and ask should we wait for the assault and then push and you find most people no responsive to even that as a simple tactical plan.

The complaint I fear you are making is that we don't have a community sophisticated enough to form even simple tactics and yes you are right. Yet this is one map which we can work out how to do this since there is no other way.

My experience as a person moving up the tier 5 bar is that what drives people is Kills and Damage. It is what you get rewarded for essentially. It leads to light for example trying to get kills and damage rather than scout and report for example and this becomes a huge issue on PH where the light/fast mech often find the enemy and then go headlong into battle with the idea of communicating what they have found or waiting for the rest of the team to get in position. However as we have seen in many maps which have a new wrinkle over time people adapt since they'll stumble on an approach that works.

Now I have won on PH with a decidedly short range build. In that match we waited for the slowest mech to get into a decent position before we engaged and yes it took patience which again is something that you end up learning.

In some respects the early maps were small which meant people got into battle very quickly irrespective of speed, Some maps are rather predictable. PH is much more sophisticated than that we may soon develop as a community an approach that gets results but I think it would take more time and may be Tier 5 won't get it

[Wintersdark]

Tywren, on 26 January 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

This would be a valid argument if mech selection occurred after the map vote, but it doesn't. What is actually happening, is that the players are choosing to bring builds that are at least moderately effective, if not outright godlike on literally every other map in pub que, and then loosing the map/mode vote and getting put on the one map where their build blows goats. That is not making a poor choice, and it most definitely is not being a bad player. At best that's playing odds that are in your favor, and loosing.

Except that isn't the case. There's a reason, you you pull up Metamechs, practically none are slow and short ranged.

There's a reason players complain of being left behind.

PH aside, our maps have been getting bigger. The two smallest where Forest Colony and River City, now those are two of the biggest. Now, the "Caustic sized" - formerly the large maps - are the smallest ones.

Slow is fine if you know your team will wait/work with you. Slow is fine if you've got range (even a DWF on PH can get guns into range and won't be left too far behind if he goes all out from the very moment of drop).

But slow and short ranged? You cede control of your usefulness to your teammates and the opposing team, and that's abchoice YOU made. Choosing to gamble and losing is still your fault, because you didn't need to gamble. Could have gone faster and short ranged, slow and long range, or any other combination other than slow and short.

Slow and short hasn't been ideal for a long time, and its just getting worse. Alpine? Even tourmaline. You can't expect every new map to have special cookies just for you because you like to use what - if you stop and think about it - is a tactically flawed build.

It's useful when you know you can force your opponent to come to you (slow brawlers are fine on CW defense missions) but quick play pugs? Less so all the time.

[Wintersdark]

tokumboh, on 27 January 2016 - 03:04 AM, said:

Ok I undrstand we don't get a choice of what to bring when and yes that sucks but actually the point is that in a team game do you leave your team mates behind or use what you have to the best ability you have?

Well, in a perfect world people wouldn't leave teammates behind, but then this isn't a perfect world.

You could make the same statement about a lot of things - that people on your team wouldnt bring garbage weapons, or outright bad builds, but none of that can be relied on either.

So, what each player CAN do is bring a self sufficient mech that doesn't rely on their teammates. This isn't a specific mech/build, or one with a million types of weapons, but simply one that will function effectively regardless of map or mode.

You can't control your teammates, but you can control how well you are able to react to the lunacy they appear to bring.

And THAT is how you get the hell out of T5.

[Setun]

AssaultPig, on 20 January 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

it doesn't incentivize 'balanced' designs though (whatever those are), it just favors long-range builds to a ridiculous degree. There's hardly any way to close distance to the enemy that doesn't involve being exposed to a huge amount of fire.

I mean, if you brought LLs, PPCs or gauss it's wonderful. If you brought anything else... blah

While I can agree with you that long range builds have a good initial harass advantage, I've managed to snake my way up to brawling range on my Atlas several times with minimal to no damage received. It's just a matter of your scouts relaying info on the enemy position as others have mentioned, and utilizing the hills / structures / anything else to your utmost advantage until it's man-mode time.

[oldradagast]

Setun, on 27 January 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

While I can agree with you that long range builds have a good initial harass advantage, I've managed to snake my way up to brawling range on my Atlas several times with minimal to no damage received. It's just a matter of your scouts relaying info on the enemy position as others have mentioned, and utilizing the hills / structures / anything else to your utmost advantage until it's man-mode time.

Yes, if your randomly generated team gives you scouts. If not, you're hosed in that Atlas and any other brawler on PH. That's the problem with that map; your random team needs a specific composition and behavior to win, but you have no control over any of that in the solu queue, and limited in group queue.

[Tarogato]

CorranHorn, on 22 January 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Now I think PGI should work on a map on the opposite of the scale. A map that can make the whole game go quick for those who complain that 10 minutes of game play is too long for them. Something like the Shipment map from CoD Modern Warfare.
http://www.cod4centr...hipmenthuge.jpg

This way you see the opponent within say like 30 seconds

We already have this map. It's called Canyon Network. And Mining Collective. And Tourmaline Desert, depending on which gamemode.

[M T]

I withdraw my earlier statement about the map being crap.

I like snow maps, i still think they coulve done better on the design but its a great longer-range oriented map. I have only experienced annoying lurm rain once on myself personally.

I miss molted pools of water to hide in on occasion though

[tokumboh]

Wintersdark, on 27 January 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

Well, in a perfect world people wouldn't leave teammates behind, but then this isn't a perfect world.

You could make the same statement about a lot of things - that people on your team wouldnt bring garbage weapons, or outright bad builds, but none of that can be relied on either.

Maybe we are talking at cross purposes, mine was firstly not a complaint it was an explanation of why PH is causing many people frustration.

Wintersdark, on 27 January 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

So, what each player CAN do is bring a self sufficient mech that doesn't rely on their teammates. This isn't a specific mech/build, or one with a million types of weapons, but simply one that will function effectively regardless of map or mode.

You can't control your teammates, but you can control how well you are able to react to the lunacy they appear to bring.

And THAT is how you get the hell out of T5.

Yes and that dos not stop you from losing matches trust me having a game of 800-1000 DMG 4+Kills 4+KMDD is not enough to move the bar unless you win.

So my view is that you you do one simple thing make sure you bring your team mates to the fight with you no matter how bad they are. The larger the map the more it matters since slow build even long range slow builds won't get to the battle in time unless you wait for them.

For me It is a bit like playing pick up basketball, You could just get the ball and drive to the hoop all the time and play one on five or you could jack up shots as you like. it is one way to play BUT at best it entertains one guy and the opposition and worst it entertains noone. As I pointed out in other posts PH is different in that it is more sophisticated, there is no standard place on the battlefield to stand and fight and indeed you may start at one point in a battle and before you know it you have been in continuous battle across multiple trenches. Yes if someone bring a short range/slow build for PH he'll be late to the battle since it does not start where you spawn ever. But it is clear from playing it more that people now wait for the assault and move on mass, sometimes people scout and don't immediately engage, but report position and allow the team to maneuver. These are more sophisticated than bring the right mech and hope everyone is in sync, you have to learn and be taught. It would mean that if someone had brought a 'bad' build they could still be brought into the battle and a short range Atlas is dealing over 50 point alphas is a sure advantage if you can move as a team. Even as a meatshields they are better shielding you a better player than waiting until you dead and them going to find them and laser vomiting him to death. It could change you 800 DMG 4Kill 4KMDD 6 KA game from a loss and no improvement in Tier bar to a win, your team mates help you get out of Tier 5 as much as you do unfortunately

[Wintersdark]

Whilst agree in bulk with the above, I'll point out that your tier bar absolutely can go up on a loss, and its not even that hard. Throughout all of tier 3, while I maintained just a 1.1-1.2 WLR, I lost rating on maybe 10 matches.

So if you have a high score (I can find the specific breakpoints if you like, but I don't have them on hand) you'll gain rating on a loss. It's trivial, though, to ensure you don't LOSE rating on the majority of losses.