142 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

PGI had nerfed all AC projectile speeds, except AC2, back in 2014, between January and April patches.

AC5 - Projectile speed reduced from 1300m/s to 1150m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/10 - Projectile speed reduced from 1100m/s to 950m/s (150m/s decrease)
AC/20 - Projectile speed reduced from 900m/s to 650m/s (250m/s decrease)

It was done mostly to nerf the poptarts who were coupling those ACs with PPCs. The poptarts are mostly gone, but the nerf remains. Would bringing back the previous AC velocity for both the IS and Clan a good idea in light of the persistent laser-vomit meta? Or is the TTK already too low and such amount of increase will only make things worse? AC velocity quirks will have to be rebalanced, of course.

Discuss.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 January 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I would argue yes. I don't think it would significantly impact TTK. Sure, it would make ballistic mechs more accurate, but we're certainly not seeing an MWO dominated by ballistics right now... And those ballistics will STILL be - will always be - less accurate than hitscan lasers.

[ChapeL]

That was done for the AC5/PPC combo if I remember well and to make sure the AC20 stayed a "close in" type of weapon. I'm ambivalent about to former but I feel the latter is fine now.

Edited by ChapeL, 16 January 2016 - 10:40 PM.

[El Bandito]

ChapeL, on 16 January 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

That was done for the AC5/PPC combo if I remember well and to make sure the AC20 stayed a "close in" type of weapon. I'm ambivalent about to former but I feel the latter is fine now.

That's cause back then ballistics had 3x range. Currently they have 2x range so even if the velocity is reverted, the AC20 will still stay as a close in type of weapon.

[Cyborne Elemental]

If nothing else, at least for the AC-10

[Ultimax]

Yes.

Why do we have a laser meta?

ACs were nerfed (velocity & triple max range fall off removed)
PPCs were nerfed (velocity)
Gauss was nerfed (CD)


Time to start rolling this stuff back.

[Wintersdark]

Mister D, on 16 January 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

If nothing else, at least for the AC-10

And 20.

Ultimatum X, on 16 January 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Yes.

Why do we have a laser meta?

ACs were nerfed (velocity & triple max range fall off removed)
PPCs were nerfed (velocity)
Gauss was nerfed (CD)


Time to start rolling this stuff back.

Yup. The range nerf really was enough, IMHO. The velo nerf is unnecessary with it.

Or, I'd also accept restoring 3x max range. Either one. In some ways, I'd prefer the current lower speed+increased range, as that adds a decided skill requirement to the weapon (need to be better at leading your target) though I expect I'm in the minority there.

[Mcgral18]

ChapeL, on 16 January 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

That was done for the AC5/PPC combo if I remember well and to make sure the AC20 stayed a "close in" type of weapon. I'm ambivalent about to former but I feel the latter is fine now.

Psst...the AC5s are +/- 50M/s of the PPCs right this very minute.

That's closer than they ever have been, as the PPCs were 1500M/s for quite some time.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Forget that, I want ACs to actually be useful at their optimal ranges. WTB MW4-esque velocities.

Here is a nice little reference for Paul since he likes spreadsheets:
For every 150m of range a non-missile projectile has, it gains 500 m/s velocity. So weapons like the AC20 would have 1000 m/s velocity, PPCs and AC5s would have near 1500 m/s speed. ERPPCs and AC2s would have decent speeds of 2500 m/s because well, let's face it, they are kind of bad weapons. Granted this still doesn't put it up to par with MW4 speeds so those worried about this making the game "too easy" (aka the main reason lasers are meta right now) can chill out a bit. Though Clan dakka may need a slight nerf if this were to make it live.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 January 2016 - 11:10 PM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 16 January 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

And 20.


Yup. The range nerf really was enough, IMHO. The velo nerf is unnecessary with it.

Or, I'd also accept restoring 3x max range. Either one. In some ways, I'd prefer the current lower speed+increased range, as that adds a decided skill requirement to the weapon (need to be better at leading your target) though I expect I'm in the minority there.

Unfortunately range without velocity is kind of irrelevant.

Even now, max ranges at these velocities are pretty hard to pull off consistently, and mostly generates unfavorable trades.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 16 January 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

Unfortunately range without velocity is kind of irrelevant.

Even now, max ranges at these velocities are pretty hard to pull off consistently, and mostly generates unfavorable trades.

I realize that. That was kind of my point: Having both nerfs is unnecessary.

Removing the velo nerf is a much larger buff, but I personally would like to see the range back instead. I totally understand the reality of it, but quite frankly, I can hit people with PPC's at long range. I'll do it with ballistics too. Not a speeding light, or someone deliberately evading, but there are a LOT of circumstances where I'm firing at someone who doesn't see it coming. Peek and poke trading, as well. Easy to hit then, even with slow projectiles.

Don't get me wrong, objectively (being a ballistics guy) I understand that a velocity buff is substantially better. I get it. But I sort of like having really long range that's difficult to use. Makes them more unique, instead of just being closer to laser accuracy but sadly short ranged.

Basically, moving max range back to 3x doesn't give you much more usable range except against unsuspecting foes, but it greatly increases the damage you do inside the old 2x max range band.

It's a personal thing, really.

[Clownwarlord]

Interesting at the same time I would also increase the velocity of the ppcs as well.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 January 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

Forget that, I want ACs to actually be useful at their optimal ranges. WTB MW4-esque velocities.

Here is a nice little reference for Paul since he likes spreadsheets:
For every 150m of range a non-missile projectile has, it gains 500 m/s velocity. So weapons like the AC20 would have 1000 m/s velocity, PPCs and AC5s would have near 1500 m/s speed. ERPPCs and AC2s would have decent speeds of 2500 m/s because well, let's face it, they are kind of bad weapons. Granted this still doesn't put it up to par with MW4 speeds so those worried about this making the game "too easy" (aka the main reason lasers are meta right now) can chill out a bit. Though Clan dakka may need a slight nerf if this were to make it live.

Those would be some nice velocities.

You can increase the cooldown for PPCs in that case, but they would remain useful at range, potentially out-trading ERLaser vomit.

Obligatory:

[Kristian Radoulov]

ACs and PPCs are due for a velocity increase beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have been pestering Russ on Twitter for a while now to do PTS 5 and see the results of exactly that. Feel free to join me.

[Azalie]

I remember fondly a match where I sniped a Jenner running full tilt in Tourmaline Desert at about 600 meters with an AC/20 back before they nerfed max range on ballistics from 3x to 2x. I used to do a lot of that once I got the 'feel' down of how the weapon would fire off my Atlas's hip. Not possible anymore at least not at that range. I didn't really see too much reason for the distance or speed nerfs as they just allowed players who were not afraid to try and reach out and push their skills to do so. The travel speed was not as important in my opinion as the max distance. Good skill and practice can overcome that speed difference for the most part.

Edited by Azalie, 16 January 2016 - 11:59 PM.

[627]

they should remove all those weapon speed quirks and then buff the speed globally, yes.

Marauder is a good example how ppc speed should be for all mechs and you dont see poptarting marauders anywhere. Same goes for ACs.

By the way, we play in times of 80point alphas, someone who is still afraid of the 30-40 alpha of the poptart era hasn't played a while (in higher tiers).
Poptating is boring, but it should be as viable as every other way to play.

[TyphonCh]

I'm in support of this. I remember that nerf. It hurt. I don't even put range modules on my AC20's anymore because hitting a target a max range or beyond is hard enough as it is. May as well be throwing rocks.

[Alistair Winter]

The AC20 is comically slow in MWO. It's like lobbing a water balloon at your enemies. I wish they fixed that.

Overall, I'd welcome an AC velocity buff. But I would prefer that they reduce heat. Buffing AC velocity will increase AC boating. Reducing AC heat will increase viability of AC+energy builds (ref: age of laser+gauss)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 17 January 2016 - 12:13 AM, said:

The AC20 is comically slow in MWO. It's like lobbing a water balloon at your enemies. I wish they fixed that.

Overall, I'd welcome an AC velocity buff. But I would prefer that they reduce heat. Buffing AC velocity will increase AC boating. Reducing AC heat will increase viability of AC+energy builds (ref: age of laser+gauss)

Heat isn't what stops AC+energy builds. Ok maybe I lied a little, for Clan dakka it is a limiting factor, but one of the most restricting factors with IS ACs is not heat outside of the 20, it is definitely velocity. 1 heat isn't the only reason Gauss + lasers worked so well, it was because of the velocity. They could have increase Gauss heat to AC20 levels and all people would've done is drop an ERML for an extra DHS and run with it. Velocity to be used at optimal ranges is what has kept the Gauss in play for a long time, negligible heat is just a bonus.

Slight note, Gauss isn't even that fast anymore, there is a reason is more typical to see pure ERLL than mix ERLL and Gauss. I know Gauss hasn't been nerfed in velocity but the average engagement range has increased since glory days of the Goosapult so I'm sure you can guess why people just run with straight ERLL vomit for extreme range fights.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 January 2016 - 12:41 AM.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 January 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Heat isn't what stops AC+energy builds. Ok maybe I lied a little, for Clan dakka it is a limiting factor, but one of the most restricting factors with IS ACs is not heat outside of the 20, it is definitely velocity. 1 heat isn't the only reason Gauss + lasers worked so well, it was because of the velocity. They could have increase Gauss heat to AC20 levels and all people would've done is drop an ERML for an extra DHS and run with it. Velocity to be used at optimal ranges is what has kept the Gauss in play for a long time, negligible heat is just a bonus.

Slight note, Gauss isn't even that fast anymore, there is a reason is more typical to see pure ERLL than mix ERLL and Gauss. I know Gauss hasn't been nerfed in velocity but the average engagement range has increased since glory days of the Goosapult so I'm sure you can guess why people just run with straight ERLL vomit for extreme range fights.

So much truth.