46 replies to this topic

[Sound19]

Today was my first contact with Community Warfare. This is simply a feedback thread, describing my experiences, while they're fresh. My intention here is merely to convey my experience. I have finished something like 6-8 CW drops, so disregard or take interest as you will.

I first played MWO in late 2012, I think. I recently reinstalled it, to see how it's evolved. Previously, I'd lost interest due to the lack of gameplay around the arena - I like purpose, goals, and immersion in games, personally. I also jumped ship at the time because I was bummed that the game went straight to the clan conflict, instead of exploring the Succession Wars - I felt the succession wars setting holds far more potential for interesting, varied, player-driven gameplay and narrative. But that's just me.

When I reinstalled some 4 days ago, I was pleased to see that CW was implemented. Good looking map, lots of star systems, great music, It looks exciting, it looks like unfolding possibility. But before trying it out, I did some forum reading on the topic, because I'm the careful sort. Therefore, I was of course prepared to have a potentially unpleasant time if I queued solo right off the bat. Things like teamwork(or more precisely, leadership) makes a vast difference, and I could reasonably see a number of reasons why jumping in could have been problematic. Also, I read that not every mech and loadout that's otherwise viable in quick play is as useful in CW. So apparently, I ought to set up an appropriate mechbay(seemingly on the heavier, poke-oriented side), one that's much different from the mechbay I wanted to pilot: lights and mediums that can tangle.

So for prep, I spent a few days in quick match to make sure my skills were up to snuff. Got my first 1,000 damage match in my new Blackjacks, and mastered them on top of my prior mastered mechs, so I think I'm ready. Today I took the plunge, signed on to a faction contract, randomly.

Well, I suppose that 'randomly' comment deserves an aside: I read through each faction, and could find no clear difference between them. Jade Falcon appears to be functionally the same faction as Ghost Bear. Davion is Liao. Etc. Now, if there are differences to be seen from the playerbase that's dedicated to a faction, somehow changing the experience in a significant way, that wouldn't be apparent. And if there's different goals or gameplay styles that could vary by changing faction, I didn't catch it. On considering what criterion would lead a player merc unit to choose to commit to one faction over the others, I could not identify a reason why. And I could not identify a reason for loyalty, either. In terms of my own decision-making at this point, the only thing I know is which banner looks prettier, and that I can get a free mech bay by changing factions until I've fought a little for them all. After that, it doesn't matter which banner gets my time.
That bummed me out.

But backing up. My time in quick play matches was pretty good. The game showed good, varied play potential across the maps and modes. The core action has improved a little from what I remember(which was great to begin with). In any match, if I wanted to play a certain style, I could basically do it, if I leveraged it right. I was not bound by an overbearing meta, I could pilot what I wanted, usefully, provided I was competitive in executing it's intended niche.

However, when I made the jump to CW, it's pretty apparent that the meta is quite over-bearing here. I don't believe that a meta is innately a badwrong thing - I'm a fan and veteran of player-driven, emergent gameplay - but the strength and impact of CW's meta really hits hard, and had me in shock. I have not yet experienced anything other than heavy & poke, and while I'll readily consider my inexperience here, I'm having a hard time imagining that I'll see many significant variations from match to match. Nor do I imagine I'll see a naturally shifting meta, just those prompted by mechanical changes. This is also a bummer.

My first few CW matches were as a solo player. I did not want to go through the hassle and social elements of joining a unit(and I still don't, in their present form). So with that handicap in place, my expectations were pretty low. Still, I was stunned to see just how little fun the game was when a disorganized pickup defends against an organized group. I was certain that I would lose going in, but I was also prepared to have some fun doing it. That did not happen, and it was a massive bummer.

After a few of these, I realized I had to compromise, so I got on my faction voice comms and joined some organized drops. Thus, the amount of 'casual' in my gameplay experience just took a hit, something I wasn't keen on, but whatever. However, these drops were un-contested. Alarmed, I started asking some questions, and found that this is a frequent experience, and therefore a significant portion of one's gameplay time. A fight against real opponents(let alone competitive opponents) is not something that receives a lot of your gaming time.

So I ask: What about defending, doesn't that get fights? And I'm answered: It makes more sense for organized groups to attack, since pub's can't do it in a practical manner.

This statement has implications. That not only will I be basically wasting a ton of my gaming time on no-opponent drops and wait queues, but that the minority of the time when I'm fighting people, I'd probably be mashing groups the way I was previously mashed in the solo queue.
And my level of bummed out starts getting measured on the Richter Scale.

It was at that point that I decided to eject out of CW, and back to the quick-queue. But now that's tainted too. Not only was my mood sour, but I realized that much of the reason I was even playing quick-queues was in anticipation for CW. I was anticipating quick-play's quality of combat, but tougher, and with more tactical nuance, as well as some added purpose and context for each fight. But the reality, while similar, is different enough that the resultant experience is incredibly not-fun.

I am not a game designer, but it seems to me that this is a result of misfired incentive systems. I understand that what I'm looking for is actually quite difficult to deliver, and a difficult target to hit. But I feel as if this isn't an impossible set of desires to address, either. I'm very interested in what the next phase of CW offers, but I'm also quite worried because I have not read anything from the developers that appears to broadly address the experience I've had today.

So this is my feedback, with the honest desire that it might not be just some blowhard on the internet, but something of may be of some limited use. Because I really love much of what MWO offers, and I want to see it get even better. I've got a sour taste in my mouth at the moment, but I don't give up too quick, and I'm full of hope.
And that's all I've got to say, I guess.

[StonedVet]

My suggestion is join a group/guild/unit.

Alot are family friendly and very accommodating.

It will enhance your gameplay experience 100 fold.

Edited by Lowridah, 21 January 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Der Hesse]

And exactly this is what some people (minority in the forums) try to tell PGI.
You are absolutely right with everything you said in my opinion.

There is a strong lobby of people who want to have CW as endgame for competitive units only.
Then there are the unit players that want CW as their chance to farm casuals as much as possible.

Please try to bring your opinion to the ears of PGI to make this game better for a big but silent part of the community.

Lowridah, on 21 January 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

My suggestion is join a group/guild/unit.

Alot are family friendly and very accommodating.

It will enhance your gameplay experience 100 fold.

Seems you didn´t understand his problems. If he joins a unit he will be part of the casual solo player farmer crowd which obviously is no fun for him. Read what he did write to the part where he dropped in a team.

Edit:
But there is hope. Russ mentioned on twitter that plans to split queues in CW between units and non unit players. So he at least seems to see the problem. Lets hope he comes up with a solution that works for everyone.

Edited by Der Hesse, 21 January 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[StonedVet]

Der Hesse, on 21 January 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

And exactly this is what some people (minority in the forums) try to tell PGI.
You are absolutely right with everything you said in my opinion.

There is a strong lobby of people who want to have CW as endgame for competitive units only.
Then there are the unit players that want CW as their chance to farm casuals as much as possible.

Please try to bring your opinion to the ears of PGI to make this game better for a big but silent part of the community.



Seems you didn´t understand his problems. If he joins a unit he will be part of the casual solo player farmer crowd which obviously is no fun for him. Read what he did write to the part where he dropped in a team.

My bad however it's 50/50 whether you get pug farming drops or not. Just look at the map queues and you can steer yourself towards tougher matchups.

CW does indeed have its fair share of issues but its far from a lost cause.

I fully agree with your advice of bringing this forth to PGI.

[Sound19]

Lowridah, on 21 January 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

My suggestion is join a group/guild/unit.

Alot are family friendly and very accommodating.

It will enhance your gameplay experience 100 fold.

Yes and no. I pretty much know what's on offer, and how it can enhance one's experience. Been online gaming since gaming went online. Been in some of the most demanding and sophisticated groups out there. And the most casual or intimate ones. Hell, I was an Eve player. But all of them are social, all of them require interacting with people other than via autocannon. And I just don't want that right now.

I recognize the incredible dissonance between A) wanting competitive team-oriented gameplay and B ) not wanting to be the most bestest team player around. But the two are actually not mutually exclusive. I believe that you can see examples in a few other game systems in place that allow people to be highly organized, but that also allow less organized and invested individuals to be folded into whatever is happening, with some compromise. In other words, I think it's possible for the elite outfits and the filthy casuals to both get what they want at the same time.

Sadly, I don't have a detailed scheme to describe in how that can occur in MWO. Sadly, I'm passing the buck to the game designers. But I feel confident that it's possible to find the middle ground that accommodates both the invested and the casuals.

Edited by Sound19, 21 January 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I pug most the time in CW. I had a lot of similar problems you did.

The reality is that pugging in CW and having fun is as much art as science. Here is what I would recommend -

Get to know some good/fun people and a good drop caller. This does NOT equate to joining a unit! However all casual groups on TS are not equal.

Get to know the fronts. Don't pug defense against worlds being actively churned by big competitive units if you don't see a 6+ team in the queue already.

Never pug on a drop that shows all singles.

Know what fronts are active and have fun people to play against. Some of the big units can, at times, just be there for the tag. Waiting 10 minutes to watch a 12man ACH rush the gems is a waste of your time. It's not them being evil, they're just not there to play with/against you. Why waste your time playing against someone who's not there to play with you?

Finally, CW isn't designed to be casual friendly. If you want casual gameplay but harder opponents then you grind your PSR tier up. CW is the team focused part of the game. It hugely rewards communication and coordination, way more than quickplay. If that's not what you want CW isn't the right place.

[Der Hesse]

Should that be the solution? That we have to game the system to have a higher chance (and only a chance) for a fun and fair fight in CW?

Yes, CW isn´t designed to be casual friendly. Exactly this is the problem. If you want CW and therefore MWO to survive you better make it casual friendly as fast as possible. Most of the damage is done because it was not when MWO was released on Steam, but maybe there is still enough to rescue.

[Sound19]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Finally, CW isn't designed to be casual friendly. If you want casual gameplay but harder opponents then you grind your PSR tier up. CW is the team focused part of the game. It hugely rewards communication and coordination, way more than quickplay. If that's not what you want CW isn't the right place.

Now this is an interesting quandary.

Because what I want out of CW isn't just higher caliber opponents. It's the big picture, the context and immersion, and to work another angle of pvp, in the form of pushing your faction against other players. I want something more that just joining arena after arena - it was what I originally wanted out of MWO, in fact.

Unfortunately, these elements I desire have been fastened to the only means of elite competition, the tournament analogue, the means of pushing team skill as far as it will go. That's a gameplay form that is not bound to CW by necessity, but by present design, by incident.

This is gaming ground that I can claim as legitimately mine.
And it's ground that the competitive units legitimately claim as their ground.

So when you say to me that CW isn't the right place for me... well, can I disagree and agree at the same time?

[MischiefSC]

If you make CW casual friendly then why have it? We already have quickplay. There is already a huge segment of the game geared to casual play.

What I don't get is why everything has to be casual. Add the maps and modes to quickplay. Burning down CW until it's just quickplay with the maps/modes and a leaderboard is just doing that anyway.

Some people hate skirmish, some hate assault, some hate conquest. The solution is not to make capping irrelevant so each match plays exactly like Skirmish because that's the easiest.

Same thing with CW. The solution is adding depth and completely to draw more of the players who find it pointless, not to eliminate complexity to draw more players who already like quickplay.

[Armando]

Lowridah, on 21 January 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

My suggestion is join a group/guild/unit.

Alot are family friendly and very accommodating.

It will enhance your gameplay experience 100 fold.

^^^^^ Best advice any pilot will give you ^^^^^^

[Sound19]

Like, if one unit wants to be the queen on the chessboard, then let them earn it and flex it. I will be totally content to be the pawn or the rook. But I want on the chessboard.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 21 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Never pug on a drop that shows all singles.

i.e. Do not play clan....ever.

[pwnface]

Clan Wolf kinda sucks without MS.

Oh hey, when did my contract change to Wolf. I guess were here to rescue the lost puppies.

Edited by pwnface, 21 January 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 21 January 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Clan Wolf kinda sucks without MS.

Oh hey, when did my contract change to Wolf. I guess were here to rescue the lost puppies.

You know why you're there.

[Armando]

Sound19, on 21 January 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yes and no. I pretty much know what's on offer, and how it can enhance one's experience. Been online gaming since gaming went online. Been in some of the most demanding and sophisticated groups out there. And the most casual or intimate ones. Hell, I was an Eve player. But all of them are social, all of them require interacting with people other than via autocannon. And I just don't want that right now.

I can understand and respect this, as long as you understand and respect that by NOT finding a team before you drop in CW you are setting yourself (and very likely your teammates too) up for a 'less than desirable' gaming experience. That said, it seems like you have a firm grasp on this concept already.

Sound19, on 21 January 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

I recognize the incredible dissonance between A) wanting competitive team-oriented gameplay and B ) not wanting to be the most bestest team player around. But the two are actually not mutually exclusive. I believe that you can see examples in a few other game systems in place that allow people to be highly organized, but that also allow less organized and invested individuals to be folded into whatever is happening, with some compromise. In other words, I think it's possible for the elite outfits and the filthy casuals to both get what they want at the same time.

In a game where there are a limited number of variables outside of player skill this is easy(ier). However, due to the HIGHLY configurable nature of mechs specifically and the game overall in general, it makes the gap between the 'haves' (Min/Maxers if you will) and 'have nots' much, Much, MUCH wider, and as a result makes designing a mode that ALL players can enjoy equally 'difficult'.

To be fair, the diversity of configuration options is a major selling point to me personally...even though it does make closing the gap between experienced pilots / new(er) pilots tough.

Sound19, on 21 January 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Sadly, I don't have a detailed scheme to describe in how that can occur in MWO. Sadly, I'm passing the buck to the game designers. But I feel confident that it's possible to find the middle ground that accommodates both the invested and the casuals.

Many suggestions have been made to PGI....some of the good...others 'not as much'. People like to think that PGI doesn't read the forums, but I don't believe it. Development (gaming or otherwise) is a LONG, HARD process...PGI has consistently and constantly made development updates / improvements to this game since I started playing 3+ years ago. Please be patient with both PGI and the players

Edited by Armando, 21 January 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[DarklightCA]

Der Hesse, on 21 January 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Should that be the solution? That we have to game the system to have a higher chance (and only a chance) for a fun and fair fight in CW?

Yes, CW isn´t designed to be casual friendly. Exactly this is the problem. If you want CW and therefore MWO to survive you better make it casual friendly as fast as possible. Most of the damage is done because it was not when MWO was released on Steam, but maybe there is still enough to rescue.

Community Warfare should not be casual friendly, the problem with what OP experiences and what other players experiences is the skill gap and teamwork/coordination gap between casual player's and non-casual player's. If you join a unit and play with that unit you are gaining a massive advantage over all other player's simply because you are a group of people willing to communicate, work together to win their games.

There is no difference between a 12 man of solo queue player's using communication, teamwork and good builds and that of a premade 12 man. The only deciding factor is skill. However a team of solo queuer's consisting of that many player's willing to do that is extremely rare because of all the casual player's clogging up the solo queue that are unwilling to do that. As such any solo queue team get's completely wiped by all the premade groups running around using that advantage.

Regular queue has a match maker system, Community Warfare does not. Regular queue has limitations on large group's, Community Warfare does not. Community Warfare is centralized around unit planetary conquest and nothing about any of that sounds casual to me. The fact remains that if all the casual player's currently clogging the solo queue played regular queue instead and all the player's/unit's from regular queue currently not invested in Community Warfare played Community Warfare. All these problems and complaint's wouldn't exist and Community Warfare would be a 10x better experience for all players.

If PGI want's to keep the casual population as it should, it should instead modify the already existing casual gamemode to be more casual friendly. Starting by limiting group's to 4 man max with tonnage restrictions still in place, adding a actual skill based match maker. That would hold all the casual player's interest and make new player's joining this game have a easier time grinding mech's to do what they want with it. Regular queue is your casual salvation, not trying to force PGI to destroy Community Warfare for everybody else.

Edited by l)arklight, 21 January 2016 - 02:44 PM.

[Groutknoll]

it sounds like you want cw phase 3


But until then, have you read any of Kin3ticX CW info? He also has created a faction TS hub post with cw guide google doc links.
http://mwomercs.com/...action-rewards/

At this time FRR seems to be one of the better factions to be part of for reduced drop wait time due to the number of attack/defend lanes and a active faction TS hub.

Edited by Groutknoll, 21 January 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

You don't have to join a unit to do well in VW. All units are not competitive even. Many units don't play CW.

What you do need is to put effort into teamwork. Yes, it's absolutely easier to do so on TS with a unit who is already good and can show you what they know but that's not required.

What CW is not is forgiving of the "I want to do my own thing" mentality. You can even farm damage from the back running 4 support builds but you're pretty much dead wight in the end and probably still think pugs always lose.

I win way over 50% of CW drops pugging. You find out where to queue on attack each wave, on defense you coordinate and support your teammates. YOU CLEAR THE MOTHER F***ING UAVS, because you're not a tunnel vision scrub. You stick with the line, you focus targets when you're up front and when you're chewed you cycle back and hammer ambitious ones and would-be flankers. When you're mostly worthless you die scouting and come back in a fresh mech.

You'll lose mechs btw. Don't be a total p***y and refuse to risk your mech. Especially if you're on defense sometimes the absolute best strat is push out agressively, hit them and the gate (or outside on some maps) to do the most damage you can and be in a fresh can of whupass when they get to your base.

Anyone can drop in CW, wander around and shoot at what the red Dorito points at and hope they have a good team to carry them.or that the other team is worse.

Actually being good at CW is a complex skillset though. It is focused on teamwork and positioning. If you end a match under 1500 damage you need to be wondering why. You need to be looking at what to improve, be that your deck, your piloting, positioning and your teamwork.

Your team being bad isn't an excuse. A coordinated 12man open rush is a good excuse. That's it.

If that isn't your attitude then you need to realize you're playing for planet's against people who do have that attitude, in some cases teams of people who are way more hardcore than that.

That's a "you" problem. That's not a game design problem. They are trying harder, working harder and putting in more effort to win. There is nothing available to them you don't have.

If your response to that is "Then the game developers need to cull out all the people who really try to win so I don't have to" Then the problem really, really is you.

There is already a quickplay queue for idontgiveaflyingfook matches. CW is supposed to be more than that.

[Jenovah]

To the OP- don't be discourage by teams "poking." It doesn't always happen. I know when the group I drop with goes in we don't poke. Of course, I cant think of a single instance where a team of strictly pugs beat us- 99% of that is coordination and communication though.

People discount it, but when I have 4 mechs, and I place my confidence in my drop caller and teammates, and if my DC tells me to lead a push, or for the whole team to push, and we share the damage and focus fire on a called out target (whoever may be calling out that available target) you tend to steam roll mechs quickly. I may lose that single mech if I'm spearheaded a conga line push, if I cant peel out of the way to spread damage fast enough, but I've got 3 more, and it's my single mech for probably an entire drop of the enemy mechs.

I don't drop call- I tried it once and I'm just not ready for it. However a good drop caller with a team that LISTENS, and COMMUNICATES back, is the singular difference between winning and losing or doing so with either a large or small margin. I've seen the results of good/bad communication dropping with the same 12 people match after match. There's no skill change, but that communication definitely affects things.

I understand you're not ready to join a group, and that's fine, but if you're willing to communicate in VOIP, there are units who will let you drop with them and learn from them, fight with them, without strings attached or a requirement to join. Just a thought.

[Leone]

So... Solo dropping in CW. I did it for months, and I'll admit, I had alotta fun. I'll also admit I ditched Davion pretty bloody early. No offense to Davion units, but solo dropping with Davion pugs was not worthwhile for me. I got my mechbay and I got out. All in all, there's certain reoccurring theme's you'll see in pug drops, and everyone poking one at a time because no one is willing to lead a charge is a common one.

I have in fact lead a glorious charge to defeat a routed enemy that was going great until they shot my mech out from under me. I figured, no problem, we out number em, the whole team followed me, we got this. And then I watched in awe as all but one of my teammates turned around an trundled back to base, allowing the enemy to regroup and come at us in an even fight again. An even fight that they won.

But I have noticed a few things that may help you in your quest for glorious combat. One, Certain factions pug better than others. Its not a universal rule, cuz random folk are random folk where ever they go, but I have noticed trends. One is clan Jade Falcon. If your going clan, they tend to be more aggressive. They aren't always, and they're usually not as aggressive as I like, but they were the clan I was in when I first was part of a twelve solo player pug group beating a twelve man unit soundly.

The second, and probably more important for your consideration is FRR. They apparently use their faction hub and teamspeak more and seem most welcoming and newplayer friendly.

~Leone.