41 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Nathaniel Johns, on 22 January 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

I am looking at a few mechs to make for Lrm support as well as have fun in. I have been wanting to do this for awhile now and I think it would be good to have a mech sitting around if I wanted to do that. So I am having a problem deciding between these two at the moment. And if you have another mech suggestion please let me know. Ok so the first one is of course

*snip*
What I am trying to figure out is should I go for all missile hard points and take advantage of using them and risk not having any other weapons for close range . or should I have some back up weapons. These three mechs are just the ones I quickly considered. As there are probably a few more suitable choices. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

The first thing is that you never, ever have to go stock. And pretty much never should. What a 'Mech comes with should never be what you judge it on, but rather what it can be built into.

It's also good to note that there's actually two different kinds of LRMs. Inner Sphere LRMs are generally fired in large clumps, which are more AMS resistant and hit simultaneously versus over a second or so. They have a dead-zone of 180m- anything they hit before traveling that distance takes no damage as the missile fails to arm. IS LRMs fire faster than Clan ones. The launchers are the heavier of the two types.

Clan LRMs fire in a stream of singleton missiles, hence it takes longer to get a launcher on the way. They also reload more slowly. On the other hand, Clan LRM launchers are half the weight of IS ones and will do reduced damage rather than zero under 180m- the closer they are to point-blank range, the less damage they inflict.

I'd stick to medium or heavy chassis- the ones mentioned above are excellent choices, and I commonly use an Orion myself. One oddball favorite of mine is the Cataphract-2X. Why? It's sort of a hybrid. They get a 20% bonus to missile cooldowns and a 10% boost to missile -velocity-, which effectively increases their accuracy. Unlike most IS 'Mechs, the -2X fires from it's 2 missile hardpoints in groups of 6- this means an LRM 15 launches as a trio of 6-6-3-missile clusters (with the 2xLRM 15 I have on it, that's actually 12-12-6-missile clusters) that hit in a tighter pattern than a normal IS LRM 15. Three energy hardpoints let you mount TAG and a few lasers with no problems, though IMHO the single ballistic slot is a waste (with smaller launchers you could fit something more than an MG, I suppose).

Always have backup weapons to your LRMs, which will be useless or considerably less useful up close depending on whether it's IS or Clan. Ideally, it's something you can add in when at the usual accurate range for LRMs- 500m or less. Even standard medium lasers will at least slightly burn something inside that!

Don't consider LRMs long-range weapons, even if they can travel 1000m. The velocity is so low as to make avoiding them very, very easy at anything much more than 600m, and 300-500m is probably ideal.

[Lyoto Machida]

wanderer, on 22 January 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

The first thing is that you never, ever have to go stock. And pretty much never should. What a 'Mech comes with should never be what you judge it on, but rather what it can be built into.

It's also good to note that there's actually two different kinds of LRMs. Inner Sphere LRMs are generally fired in large clumps, which are more AMS resistant and hit simultaneously versus over a second or so. They have a dead-zone of 180m- anything they hit before traveling that distance takes no damage as the missile fails to arm. IS LRMs fire faster than Clan ones. The launchers are the heavier of the two types.

Clan LRMs fire in a stream of singleton missiles, hence it takes longer to get a launcher on the way. They also reload more slowly. On the other hand, Clan LRM launchers are half the weight of IS ones and will do reduced damage rather than zero under 180m- the closer they are to point-blank range, the less damage they inflict.

I'd stick to medium or heavy chassis- the ones mentioned above are excellent choices, and I commonly use an Orion myself. One oddball favorite of mine is the Cataphract-2X. Why? It's sort of a hybrid. They get a 20% bonus to missile cooldowns and a 10% boost to missile -velocity-, which effectively increases their accuracy. Unlike most IS 'Mechs, the -2X fires from it's 2 missile hardpoints in groups of 6- this means an LRM 15 launches as a trio of 6-6-3-missile clusters (with the 2xLRM 15 I have on it, that's actually 12-12-6-missile clusters) that hit in a tighter pattern than a normal IS LRM 15. Three energy hardpoints let you mount TAG and a few lasers with no problems, though IMHO the single ballistic slot is a waste (with smaller launchers you could fit something more than an MG, I suppose).

Always have backup weapons to your LRMs, which will be useless or considerably less useful up close depending on whether it's IS or Clan. Ideally, it's something you can add in when at the usual accurate range for LRMs- 500m or less. Even standard medium lasers will at least slightly burn something inside that!

Don't consider LRMs long-range weapons, even if they can travel 1000m. The velocity is so low as to make avoiding them very, very easy at anything much more than 600m, and 300-500m is probably ideal.

Are you sure about that CTF spread with the smaller tube firing pattern? Coulda swore from someone's testing back in the day that a 20 fired from a 2 tube would still possess the spread of a 20, just staggered into 10 salvos of 2. Always liked hitting someone with 50 or 60 tubes at once when going for the killshot so I never bothered much with those streamy mechs with smaller tube counts.

[Cementi]

Trebuchet is solid and has good mobility.

[wanderer]

Just pulled these from Frozen City Training Grounds- all three are 2x Artemis LRM-15's, from the start point so they're the exact same range and angle of fire. No TAG or NARC was used.



The Orion launches from 20-20 tube hardpoints. The Cataphract-2X is 6-6. The Atlas-RS is 10-6. Each is the results after 3 firings (90 missiles to target). As you can see, each one has distinct hit patterns from the other.

[Lightfoot]

Honestly in MWO it's the Timber Wolf D or the Warhammer 7S. Sturdy with enough missile hardpoints and back-up energy and decent speed. Speed is important. Lore-wise it should be the Mad Dog and Orion which are both good at LRMs, but in MWO the first two I mentioned are better.

[Lyoto Machida]

wanderer, on 22 January 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

Just pulled these from Frozen City Training Grounds- all three are 2x Artemis LRM-15's, from the start point so they're the exact same range and angle of fire. No TAG or NARC was used.



The Orion launches from 20-20 tube hardpoints. The Cataphract-2X is 6-6. The Atlas-RS is 10-6. Each is the results after 3 firings (90 missiles to target). As you can see, each one has distinct hit patterns from the other.

True, aren't the results of that pic backing up my school of thought? Bigger tube count over streams? The Orion has the most CT core damage done.

[Lightfoot]

Monkey Lover, on 22 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Look at medium lrm boats. Any lrms boat larger than a medium is hurting your team.

ha-ha! but not true. I would say an assault with LRMs as it's main is a waste, but anything under assault is good for PUGs. Just make sure you can pull your weight by putting the other team into defensive mode.

[wanderer]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 January 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

True, aren't the results of that pic backing up my school of thought? Bigger tube count over streams? The Orion has the most CT core damage done.

Crits tend to bollix internal damage results, but I couldn't get a clear example of armor damage on the Cicada without the third salvo. Notice how there's more torso armor damage on the non-Orion hits vs. the other two- and in any case, note that despite all three being the same pair of launchers, they have distinctive hit patterns thanks to firing from differing tube-size hardpoints. An LRM 15 is not an LRM 15 is not an LRM 15, depending on what you fire it from.

[Mayhem McCrea]

While I agree with the previous posters regarding LRM assaults, I also have an LRM STK-5M. It runs 5 artemis LRM5s, (chain fired for streamy clanner like fire effect) 4 arm mounted mlas and 1 ER large laser in CT.

Not fast, doesn't carry as much ammo as it could with smaller lasers, (a bit over 1000 missiles) but once it's expended all its missiles (and is thus no longer full of explosives) it still has some decent punch and can behave more assaultishly. Standard engine and CT large laser lets me occasionally zombie.

Also the 5M specifically gets an LRM range quirk, which combined with an appropriate LRM range module, can give you LRMs that fly an extra 250m. This is *occasionally* handy/useful/amusing.

[wanderer]

....you actually regularly fire LRMs at 1000+ meter targets?

That's like 7 3/4 seconds of flight time.

[SoukouKiheiVOTOMS]

The Warhawk without a shadow of a doubt. Stuff in 3 LRM10s, 4 ERML, and a TAG or extra ERML. Add in a radar deprivation module along with LRM15 Cool Down and ERML Range Module. Keep a distance of 300-500 meters and chain fire your LRM Blue Rain like there is no tomorrow. It can ravage an assault if caught in the open. It really is an assault hunter as the screen shake is almost like being hit by Kintaro LRM spam but hits way harder and has so much damn ammo it will NEVER be a concern unless you hit 1500 damage, which I have done in the last.
Have fun and by a MANHAWK.

Edited by SoukouKiheiVOTOMS, 22 January 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[wanderer]

The IS assault that probably gives best LRM performance for pure alpha blasts is the Awesome-8R, but it's up for vomiting out 60-missile death clouds vs. streaming ala the Warhawk Clantech launchers- or it can chain the LRM 15's for respectable rattle. More missiles, less secondary firepower, but when it hits something, the target definitely feels it.

[wanderer]

SoukouKiheiVOTOMS, on 22 January 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

The Warhawk without a shadow of a doubt. Stuff in 4 LRM10s, 4 ERML, and a TAG or extra ERML. Add in a radar deprivation module along with LRM10 Cool Down and ERML Range Module. Keep a distance of 300-500 meters and chain fire your LRM Blue Rain like there is no tomorrow. It can ravage an assault if caught in the open. It really is an assault hunter as the screen shake is almost like being hit by Kintaro LRM spam but hits way harder and has so much damn ammo it will NEVER be a concern unless you hit 1500 damage, which I have done in the last.
Have fun and by a MANHAWK.

Mind you, damage potential in "pure" LRM boats tends to be curtailed by ammo loads- that is, you're only gonna get at most damage equal to how many missiles you can lob. This can mean a 'Mech with two LRM 10's can get the same damage totals as 4 LRM 10s...if they're packing the same tonnage in ammo. If most of your weapon tonnage is launchers + ammo, there's limits to how much you can push the envelope. And in any case, it's a good reason to put a few tons towards weapons you can use up close/as backup for the launchers. For example, at 75 tons in my Orion:

[Mayhem McCrea]

wanderer, on 22 January 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

....you actually regularly fire LRMs at 1000+ meter targets?

That's like 7 3/4 seconds of flight time.

Regularly? Oh MY no. I must not have put enough emphasis on "*occasionally*." Which is pretty much, y'know, the opposite.

But I do fire at and manage to hit people at those ranges when the opportunity (occasionally) presents itself. Mostly on Tourmaline or Alpine. Preferably after letting them get a look at me and concluding that I am out of LRM range. Then when I open fire, at least ideally, they don't bother to dodge. I'm written off as an LRM noob what hasn't learned LRM range yet, and thus they react amusingly when they're hit anyway.

It's worth mentioning that I'm currently a casual tier 4. The success rate of missiling dudes at over 1000m will no doubt drop quite dramatically when I hit lower tiers. I'm ok with that, fun in the meantime.

[Windscape]

i run my stalker 4N w/ 2 LRM15's, 2 ER lrg lsrs, and 4 med lsrs. The way i see it is that u dont want the LRM to be the primary weapon, but the secondary weapon. You always want the energies and/or balistics to back you up. I run a TBR w/ 2 LRM 15's, 4 med pulse, and 3 machine gun. Having a true LRM boat can be useful at times, but not always. Just make sure to add enough ammo of course. And btw twin LRM 15's and 10's seem to do me quite well

[SoukouKiheiVOTOMS]

wanderer, on 22 January 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Mind you, damage potential in "pure" LRM boats tends to be curtailed by ammo loads- that is, you're only gonna get at most damage equal to how many missiles you can lob. This can mean a 'Mech with two LRM 10's can get the same damage totals as 4 LRM 10s...if they're packing the same tonnage in ammo. If most of your weapon tonnage is launchers + ammo, there's limits to how much you can push the envelope. And in any case, it's a good reason to put a few tons towards weapons you can use up close/as backup for the launchers. For example, at 75 tons in my Orion:

Not to be rude, but you do realize that the Warhawk LRM build I mentioned, which I meant to say included 3 LRM 15s, not 4 LRM 10s (probably thinking of something else), has nearly 2000 missiles to its disposal. That means nearly 45 full volleys of LRM lobbing. Enough for 2000 round of damage with perfect accuracy, and a more likely number of 1000-1400 damage when including bad aim and loss of locks. This is not including the 4/5 ERML that are attached which essentially let this thing be absolutely brutal in bringing long to medium range damage in any fight. It is far from just a "pure" LRM build, it is well rounded and capable of doing some serious damage to a team if played with even decent skill and intelligence. The Orion is a great LRM boat, but I really believe that if the OP is a decent LRM user, he'd do some amazing things with the Warhawk. Keeping in mind the fact that you have essentially the same speed but better armor on the Warhawk, albeit it is larger (but that hasn't stopped the KCB and Direwolf from being feared).

[Mech Jager]

The clan mechs can do pug lrms very well because of the range of the cmlas/cmplas and the weight of the lrms. I like lrm15 w artemis mostly for the artemis lock time not the spread. The warhawk and maddog have enough module slots for seismic sensor and target decay. Target decay is a must in close games, because you need to not just scare mechs, but kill them and not depend on others for locks, because a good team will keep them running before your damage can hit. I like high mount lrms like on the warhawk because I can be stuck behind others near the front and lob my buggeys over them while other mechs may be trying to get fire in.

As well as the clan mechs above the Stalker and Hunchbacks are good mechs to master and have good options for lrms and other roles. Just be careful many fire support mechs are easy to get great damage numbers on a winning team, but they can also learn bad habits and not notice subtle changes that are needed at higher play levels. Winning over 50% of matches with 200-400 damage pays more loosing under 50% with some occasional huge numbers (note - rule of thumb not exact for every player at every level)

I am not a lrm fan, but it helps learning how to build and play them well to effectively know how to counter them.

[wanderer]

SoukouKiheiVOTOMS, on 22 January 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

Not to be rude, but you do realize that the Warhawk LRM build I mentioned, which I meant to say included 3 LRM 15s, not 4 LRM 10s (probably thinking of something else), has nearly 2000 missiles to its disposal.

Right. That's why I was saying that most reasonable LRM boats are damage restricted more on their ammo load than anything else- the other limiter being clean locks and match time to fire them in.

The more tonnage you can safely devote to ammo, the higher you can push damage totals- as long as you can keep firing those missiles and not run dry before the end, or run out of targets before you run out of missiles. That's me with 2 LRM 15's and a few 100 less missiles to toss. I'm at 1800 at full load, you're likely at 1980...which, coincidentally enough is about the damage difference between a 1300ish game and a 1500ish game in terms of missile delivery.

I tend to favor CLRM10's for the faster rate-of-fire myself, but 15's are OK, too. Just used to being able to dump ammo at the IS reload rates vs. slower Clan ones. But the Warhawk really is the best Clan assault for lobbing missiles, as it doesn't fall into the "too slow to maneuver" category like cringe-worthy 40kph [i]Atlai/i].

[Dirus Nigh]

The key to being a good LRM user is positioning, and knowing the terrain.

Medium mechs are best at keeping up with the team, and repositioning to get a better flight path for your missiles.

Medium mechs are best at positioning, and harassing of the enemy team.

IS mechs:

The Griffin 3M and 2N can keep up volleys of LRM5s while still using a PPC for direct fire. Both can mount a TAG in teh arm, the 3m in the left torso. The Griffin is pretty tall so you can clear low hills and buildings. The 2N has ECM to help keep you off the enemy's radar. They both give 10% bonus to missile velocity.

The HBK 4J, and 4SP can make a decent LRM boat. You can pack a 250 standard engine in them with LRM10s and five med lasers. They are basically a fast pocket catapult. Both give velocity and cool down quirks. However the 4J have a 35% total bonus when using LRM10s.

For the Catapult I would use the C4 over the A1. The C4 has two less missile points, but the two energy points make up for it. You can mount a tag to garget ECM mechs. You could also mount a large laser for added direct fire at long range, or med lasers for close in work. The catapults missile arm boxes are huge and easy to target, so WHEN they get shot off you can still fight.

IS assaults can make good missile boats and not "hurt the team". Saying they hurt the team is snobbery. It's bad piloting that hurts the team. When you play an assault you have to really pay attention to what your team is doing, and plan ahead. They are slow. You need to know where on the map to stand so you can get hits with the missiles.

Standing just over the shoulder of your other assaults and heavies on the front line is the best spot, if not in line next to them. 100m behind is far enough. You need to stay close so you can step up to the front and help spread the damage for your team, and use direct fire. Remember Direct missile fire is the best. That is how artemis gives you a bonus to missile spread, and you can keep your own lock. Just remember when you are standing behind a teammate stand to the left or right, never directly behind.

The LRM's ability to indirectly fire can help the slow assaults fight when they are still trying to position themselves. Indirect fire does not mean hide and let the team take the hits, it's for still adding your damage out put to the team when you are maneuvering around low hills and buildings.

Awesome 8T is the one you want to use out of that chassis. It has good missile quirks for the LRM15s. With the right engine it can be rather nimble.

Battlemaster 1S is a good missile carrier. It can take a hit, is highly mobile for an assault mech, and has high mounted missile energy points. The torso mounted missiles are at a good height, while the arms let you snap your aim up to get extra height wile firing.

I never really used the stalkers. I do know there are one or two variants that can dish out a lot of missiles. However the thing is really slow.

KIng Crab 0000. This mech has four energy points in teh right torso and four missile points in the left. The great thing about the King Crab is that these locations are really dorsal mounted above the cockpit. This lets the king crab work better than a lot of other missile boats.

The crab can peek along with the rest of the team over hills while having all of it's weapons firing. I use 4 LL and 4 LRM10s on my crab. I can stand with the front line of my team and help take damage, and pump out direct damage with my LL. THe LRMS can be fired while I am moving around teammates and hills. Also if I am hill humping I can gets locks and fire the LL when I am peeking, and maintain missile locks when I am moving back down the hill. The target retention module really helps with this. I've used this mech in CW a lot. the weapon mounts are at the perfect high for shooting over buildings like the vehicle hangers or smaller hab buildings.

Clan Mechs:

The adder can be a pretty decent missile mech. It's small, nimble and can maneuver around the team quickly to get better angles. Also by using the adder you allow another slot to be used as a direct fire heavy or assault.

Stormcrows like the griffin make a great medium missile carrier, but a lot better. They do not have the same number of hard points but they can pack two LRM10s with med lasers and a tag. Thing of it as a pocket catapult 2C. It's also very fast for a medium can harass from different angles were slower heavy and assault mechs will get left alone.

Mad Dogs are pretty much missile mechs. Six LRM5s four ER med lasers and a tag. You are mobile for a heavy and can be a good wing man for the timberwolves.

Warhawks can boat missile just not as good as other IS assaults. I'd reather use four large pulse. However as a missile carrier it is very nimble for an assault. That said, better to use a Mad Dog, to let another assault do direct fire.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

For LRM support the Hunchback 4j is the one to use.

Not only is it really good, the other hunchbacks have different roles and are a ton of fun.