23 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

So something fluff related I've read in some books, and seen about the TT is that mechs would actually have a walking and running speed. Running made it more difficult to accurately shoot a target than walking did. We can see this in many of the mech animations if you slowly adjust your speed.

Would adding a mechanic similar to JJ screen shake (to a lesser extent maybe or dependent on how far into your run speed you are) for running speed to simulate CoF/convergence/computer adjusted aiming be something interesting? In contrast walking speed (at any point) would remain accurate?

Edited by MauttyKoray, 25 January 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

If you go to 3rd person view then you have crosshair shake which amount depends on your speed.

[Lykaon]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

So something fluff related I've read in some books, and seen about the TT is that mechs would actually have a walking and running speed. Running made it more difficult to accurately shoot a target than walking did. We can see this in many of the mech animations if you slowly adjust your speed.

Would adding a mechanic similar to JJ screen shake (to a lesser extent maybe or dependent on how far into your run speed you are) for running speed to simulate CoF/convergence/computer adjusted aiming be something interesting? In contrast walking speed (at any point) would remain accurate?

The table top game mechanic was designed to simulate movement effects on accuracy.

MWo is a real time video game where your targets will move and deliberatley dodge your attempts to deal them damage. So we need no mechanic to simulate movement because in a video game the mechs actually do move.

[1Grimbane]

what he said^ your targets in this game are already moving. so no rolls are thrown to see if you hit lol. you either master the mouse or joystick or die

[Bergitor]

Lykaon, on 25 January 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

The table top game mechanic was designed to simulate movement effects on accuracy.

MWo is a real time video game where your targets will move and deliberatley dodge your attempts to deal them damage. So we need no mechanic to simulate movement because in a video game the mechs actually do move.

He's citing the +1 walk, +2 run, and +3 (minimum) jump modifiers to the "to-hit" roll, which only included the attackers movement. Which would simulate the difficulty of firing on the move. The modifier that takes into affect the enemies movement, which is what you're referencing, is independent of the attackers movement, and so doesn't reflect the difficulty of firing while moving.

I agree with the original poster to a degree on this. It looks like everything on the mech is auto-stabilized, like the main cannon on an M1 Abrams. In effect keeping the cross hairs- which then includes the guns- pointed at the same target down range regardless of relative movement on the platform that its installed. Which just doesn't seem battletechy Seems to much like what Comstar might have going on for them in their lost tech treasure troves some where.

Edited by Bergitor, 25 January 2016 - 02:08 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Your own to hit rolls are:

1.) Are you standing still?
2.) Are you torso twisting?

There's your running and aiming modifier. Just so happens we all have inherently higher stats than your battletech pilots.

[Bergitor]

GreyNovember, on 25 January 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Your own to hit rolls are:

1.) Are you standing still?
2.) Are you torso twisting?

There's your running and aiming modifier. Just so happens we all have inherently higher stats than your battletech pilots.

We're all essentially the Hero pilots from the novels and other source material. Either we all have the surname Kerensky or we're the ******* children of their blood line.

[MauttyKoray]

Well, I'm not surprised by the responses... Pretty much the 'no I want to hit 100% where I'm aiming exactly because skill matters more than anything' stuff I knew was coming. Thanks to those who understood what I was talking about though.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 25 January 2016 - 02:22 AM.

[GreyNovember]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

Well, I'm not surprised by the responses... Pretty much the 'no I want to hit 100% where I'm aiming exactly because skill matters more than anything' stuff I knew was coming. Thanks to those who understood what I was talking about though.

You want what amounts to varying levels of jumpjet shake constantly if you aren't at a standstill, or below a certain speed.

A Dire will enter this jumpjet shake at "Running Speed" lower than a Jenner will.

Laser lights can't dogfight effectively now. SRM lights however are more or less totally unaffected.

God forbid you try to run and shoot ballistics.

Is it hard to see why this might be frowned on within reason?

[MauttyKoray]

GreyNovember, on 25 January 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

You want what amounts to varying levels of jumpjet shake constantly if you aren't at a standstill, or below a certain speed.

A Dire will enter this jumpjet shake at "Running Speed" lower than a Jenner will.

Laser lights can't dogfight effectively now. SRM lights however are more or less totally unaffected.

God forbid you try to run and shoot ballistics.

Is it hard to see why this might be frowned on within reason?

Why would SRMs be unaffected? They are still dependent on the reticule to aim.

The point was that a mech going 150kph probably shouldn't be able to shoot a bunch of lasers/missiles as accurately as they do now. Or that a big lumbering 100 ton assault mech probably shouldn't be able to shoot quad-UACs with pinpoint accuracy while 'jogging' at top speed.

I said that the shake could be less than JJs, possibly just enough to make the shots not pinpoint accurate while still in the same general area of where you're aiming (maybe hit a component to the left/right or up/down from where you're trying to?

One of the biggest issues with this game to date is large pinpoint alphas, and mechs going high speeds while firing them just adds to the issue. If people don't want their PPFLD boats touched, god forbid someone suggests a mechanic to make them require more skill and tactics than 'run into enemy, shoot, spin, shoot, duck into cover while shooting, poke and shoot, etc'. right?

My idea may not be right, but it was something, and it wasn't horrible. Lets see you come up with one, oh wait that's right, the majority of people who shoot these ideas down don't contribute their own either.

Yes I'm acting like a ****, yes my jimmies are rustled, but at least I'm TRYING to be helpful, unlike what seems to be 90%+ of this community just constantly bitching. Honestly I think this is even the worst idea I've shared, but every other suggestion I've made with ACTUAL BALANCE involved gets verbally shat upon by the alpha-boat-warriors.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 25 January 2016 - 03:17 AM.

[kapusta11]

Lykaon, on 25 January 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

The table top game mechanic was designed to simulate movement effects on accuracy.

MWo is a real time video game where your targets will move and deliberatley dodge your attempts to deal them damage. So we need no mechanic to simulate movement because in a video game the mechs actually do move.

Whoa, you make way too much sense.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

by the TT ,a still standig Mech can not aiming by another still standing Mech in 30m (one Hex) a single Hitzone (Cockpit ,or arm) ...the Dice say ...you hit the left Feet or the right Torso , the enemy Mech only a big great single Hitzone

of the other Side ,the hit with this very bad Aiming a full Speed Aerospacefighter with not guided LRMs

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 25 January 2016 - 03:21 AM.

[GreyNovember]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

Why would SRMs be unaffected? They are still dependent on the reticule to aim.

The point was that a mech going 150kph probably shouldn't be able to shoot a bunch of lasers/missiles as accurately as they do now. Or that a big lumbering 100 ton assault mech probably shouldn't be able to shoot quad-UACs with pinpoint accuracy while 'jogging' at top speed.

I said that the shake could be less than JJs, possibly just enough to make the shots not pinpoint accurate while still in the same general area of where you're aiming (maybe hit a component to the left/right or up/down from where you're trying to?

One of the biggest issues with this game to date is large pinpoint alphas, and mechs going high speeds while firing them just adds to the issue. If people don't want their PPFLD boats touched, god forbid someone suggests a mechanic to make them require more skill and tactics than 'run into enemy, shoot, spin, shoot, duck into cover while shooting, poke and shoot, etc'. right?

My idea may not be right, but it was something, and it wasn't horrible. Lets see you come up with one, oh wait that's right, the majority of people who shoot these ideas down don't contribute their own either.

Yes I'm acting like a ****, yes my jimmies are rustled, but at least I'm TRYING to be helpful, unlike what seems to be 90%+ of this community just constantly bitching. Honestly I think this is even the worst idea I've had yet, but every other suggestion I've made with ACTUAL BALANCE involved gets verbally shat upon by the alpha-boat-warriors.

Your tone doesn't really help facilitate said attempt at contribution. But let's put aside emotion.

SRMs already spread anyway. It's pointles to try to do anything to focus them, so this may as well be +% spread while moving, which is moot when they're fire and forget shotguns anyway.

Fine. Let's say a light can't shoot accurately at 150-ish. But only if these weapons are on an arm that has the appropriate sway leverage. A Jenner cannot have horizontal deviation, and a Locust PB cannot have any deviation at all.

Have it scale with weight. A locust would get insignificant amounts of shake compared to a Jenner, who would have much less compared to a cicada, who would have MUCH less compared to a Marauder. Make it an inverse relationship, akin to MASC.

That solves High alpha boating on the mechs that CAN high alpha boat to a degree, and mechs that would otherwise be smashed in the kneecaps by this get off less severe.

[Mead]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

Why would SRMs be unaffected? They are still dependent on the reticule to aim.

The point was that a mech going 150kph probably shouldn't be able to shoot a bunch of lasers/missiles as accurately as they do now. Or that a big lumbering 100 ton assault mech probably shouldn't be able to shoot quad-UACs with pinpoint accuracy while 'jogging' at top speed.

I said that the shake could be less than JJs, possibly just enough to make the shots not pinpoint accurate while still in the same general area of where you're aiming (maybe hit a component to the left/right or up/down from where you're trying to?

One of the biggest issues with this game to date is large pinpoint alphas, and mechs going high speeds while firing them just adds to the issue. If people don't want their PPFLD boats touched, god forbid someone suggests a mechanic to make them require more skill and tactics than 'run into enemy, shoot, spin, shoot, duck into cover while shooting, poke and shoot, etc'. right?

My idea may not be right, but it was something, and it wasn't horrible. Lets see you come up with one, oh wait that's right, the majority of people who shoot these ideas down don't contribute their own either.

Yes I'm acting like a ****, yes my jimmies are rustled, but at least I'm TRYING to be helpful, unlike what seems to be 90%+ of this community just constantly bitching. Honestly I think this is even the worst idea I've shared, but every other suggestion I've made with ACTUAL BALANCE involved gets verbally shat upon by the alpha-boat-warriors.

It doesn't really look like there was any abuse or rundown against your idea here, just a few people who disagreed and a couple who agreed. Reasonable discussion was reasonable until the loltantrum. Now it's just amusing.

[Lightfoot]

It's already harder to aim while running as you have to adjust for uneven terrain. The lore and books also have targeting computers that allow you to auto-hit any mech section including the head and these compensate for movement speed as well. Would you add those as well?

PPC hits also disrupt mech electronics and sensors (your HUD) for 5 to 10 seconds. Previous MechWarrior games emulated this also.

Above all MWO has almost no weapons spin. Weapon spin knocks mechs down. In previous MechWarrior games weapons like LB-20X, Gauss Rifle, UAC-20, 2xPPCs would knock medium and light mechs down. Put two of any of those together and you knock down heavy mechs. 3x any or 5xPPCs knocks down assault class mechs. Can just imagine all the MWO player head's exploding if they had to press a button to make their mechs get back up after a knockdown! Can you imagine the howling whine on the forums?! LRMs too. In MW3 4x LRM10 could knock down any Heavy mech, but you could dodge missiles in MW3 also.

Edited by Lightfoot, 25 January 2016 - 03:38 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

GreyNovember, on 25 January 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

Your tone doesn't really help facilitate said attempt at contribution. But let's put aside emotion.

SRMs already spread anyway. It's pointles to try to do anything to focus them, so this may as well be +% spread while moving, which is moot when they're fire and forget shotguns anyway.

Fine. Let's say a light can't shoot accurately at 150-ish. But only if these weapons are on an arm that has the appropriate sway leverage. A Jenner cannot have horizontal deviation, and a Locust PB cannot have any deviation at all.

Have it scale with weight. A locust would get insignificant amounts of shake compared to a Jenner, who would have much less compared to a cicada, who would have MUCH less compared to a Marauder. Make it an inverse relationship, akin to MASC.

That solves High alpha boating on the mechs that CAN high alpha boat to a degree, and mechs that would otherwise be smashed in the kneecaps by this get off less severe.

Nothing to do with spread, just like the JJ shake the weapons aren't being coned, they're being 'shaken'. Like I said its not a well thought out idea and probably the worst I've brought up, but I figured I would since it was something from the TT mechanics and lore fluff/books/novels that was always mentioned.

Mead, on 25 January 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

It doesn't really look like there was any abuse or rundown against your idea here, just a few people who disagreed and a couple who agreed. Reasonable discussion was reasonable until the loltantrum. Now it's just amusing.

As for this, Grey is pretty much acting like the typical poster I described. "Its all based on player skill" comments are what generally derail/squash any attempt to talk about a mechanic that may affect PPFLD players that think every single weapon they shoot should hit 100% perfectly where they aim.

I'm sure if JJs weren't mostly garbage they'd be complaining about the JJ shake still too.

[Navid A1]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

So something fluff related I've read in some books, and seen about the TT is that mechs would actually have a walking and running speed. Running made it more difficult to accurately shoot a target than walking did. We can see this in many of the mech animations if you slowly adjust your speed.

Would adding a mechanic similar to JJ screen shake (to a lesser extent maybe or dependent on how far into your run speed you are) for running speed to simulate CoF/convergence/computer adjusted aiming be something interesting? In contrast walking speed (at any point) would remain accurate?

No... just..no...no

What is your reason behind this suggestion?... all i see is because TT has X we should have it in MWO as well. Your suggestion will make MWO even more torturous than it is now.
Give me a reason. What you want to accomplish?

In fact... i'm more in favor of them removing reticle shake from stuff like MASC.

Edited by Navid A1, 25 January 2016 - 03:30 AM.

[GreyNovember]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Nothing to do with spread, just like the JJ shake the weapons aren't being coned, they're being 'shaken'. Like I said its not a well thought out idea and probably the worst I've brought up, but I figured I would since it was something from the TT mechanics and lore fluff/books/novels that was always mentioned.

Right.

Them being "Shaken" might as well be the same as them being "Spread"

Offsetting the launch position of the missiles effectively does the same thing in that they become less accurate.

I therefore compensate for this by... well, not doing anything because this is more or less reliable SRM behavior.

You know. The analog for "gunnery checks" being "skill".

You're free to ignore the rest of my suggestions, but come on now.

[Widowmaker1981]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

Why would SRMs be unaffected? They are still dependent on the reticule to aim.

The point was that a mech going 150kph probably shouldn't be able to shoot a bunch of lasers/missiles as accurately as they do now. Or that a big lumbering 100 ton assault mech probably shouldn't be able to shoot quad-UACs with pinpoint accuracy while 'jogging' at top speed.

I said that the shake could be less than JJs, possibly just enough to make the shots not pinpoint accurate while still in the same general area of where you're aiming (maybe hit a component to the left/right or up/down from where you're trying to?

One of the biggest issues with this game to date is large pinpoint alphas, and mechs going high speeds while firing them just adds to the issue. If people don't want their PPFLD boats touched, god forbid someone suggests a mechanic to make them require more skill and tactics than 'run into enemy, shoot, spin, shoot, duck into cover while shooting, poke and shoot, etc'. right?

My idea may not be right, but it was something, and it wasn't horrible. Lets see you come up with one, oh wait that's right, the majority of people who shoot these ideas down don't contribute their own either.

Yes I'm acting like a ****, yes my jimmies are rustled, but at least I'm TRYING to be helpful, unlike what seems to be 90%+ of this community just constantly bitching. Honestly I think this is even the worst idea I've shared, but every other suggestion I've made with ACTUAL BALANCE involved gets verbally shat upon by the alpha-boat-warriors.

How would you suggest non SRM lights be effective?

Most lights have to run multiple small/medium lasers. they cant do anything else, due to tonnage considerations.
If you stop moving within sight of an enemy in a light, you just made a huge mistake and will likely die instantly
Larger mechs can slow down/stop before firing without too much of an issue because they are easy to hit anyway, so it makes little difference.

[Catra Lanis]

Widowmaker1981, on 25 January 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

How would you suggest non SRM lights be effective?

Most lights have to run multiple small/medium lasers. they cant do anything else, due to tonnage considerations.
If you stop moving within sight of an enemy in a light, you just made a huge mistake and will likely die instantly
Larger mechs can slow down/stop before firing without too much of an issue because they are easy to hit anyway, so it makes little difference.

They'd have to get closer I guess. Depends on how much the screenshake would be though.