51 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Sigmar Sich, on 25 January 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

What i don't like about MWO meta - not content, but form - one weapon group, huge alpha. Huge alphas reduced MWO gameplay to cover dependent peeking, like World of Tanks. With MWO potential - it is a degradation.


And it is sad to see mutilated 'mechs, who lost all their individuality.

Obviously, there always will be meta. I probably want it shifted from alpha strike one-button loadouts to two-three buttons diverse loadouts.
I believe this can be achieved with 1) heat management balance - more dissipation, less capacity 2) zonal quirks - quirk work only in certain mech location for certain amount of weapons (amount limitation because some mechs have too many hardpoints in same location)
And no more of this stupid quirks for weapon range, beam duration etc. Buff/nerf weapons themselves.
At least this would be a start.

Yup, rather then slower firing output, so assault mechs can push, light mechs can flank, mediums and heavies can duke it out and we can have some actual mechy combat.

There really is little more epic then 24 battlemechs all duking it out in a huge field. MW4: Mercs was one of the most epic SP campaigns, it had multitudes of very large battlemech fights. Griffin Base, against some big company of mechs for a Manor, some fight over a supply base, vs that Clan Jade Turkey lady, they were pretty epic feeling. Mechs lasted a minute, it could be a nice back and forth fight.

MWO, yeah, its pretty much, poke, find a target, lolpha and hide before the weight of the other enemy team falls on your head. MWO feels more like playing Russian Roulette then a strategic battlemech game.

[DovisKhan]

mogs01gt, on 25 January 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

umm not following your point.

DPS mechs have to have reveal their entire hardpoint layouts to effectively use those weapons. A DWF using gauss+laser vomit can poke and get back into cover. This means by the time the DPS DWF is able to effectively use his hardpoints, his armor is already halved.

You're talking situations here, sure, a Lucust with 50% energy range quirk and range module can attack from 2km away and annihilate anything since no one can touch it, but we're not talking extremes here.


An CUAC20 Dire can unleash 160+ damage in 1 second and go back to cover, doing all that at ~400m range which is where most non huge map fighting happens. So Gauss whatever would not get a second shot

[Red Shrike]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 12:03 AM, said:

An CUAC20 Dire can unleash 160+ damage in 1 second and go back to cover

Aaaand this is why MWO has turned into World of Tanks.

We might want to move away from high alphas and focus more on achieving sustained damage. How one would enforce such a thing, I don't really know. Yet.

[Moldur]

Meta has really become a butchered term in gaming. It has basically come to mean optimal in its perverse usage, but what it is supposed to mean is that you are playing based around what you believe other people are likely to do.

For example, if you are familiar with U.S. American football:
lets say we are running through our offensive plays during practice, and I am a stand in as defensive end. There is some play where the tight-end breaks for the side of the field looking for a pass. Without prior knowledge, I should cover him.. But I know this play, and I know they are not actually passing to the tight-end, so instead of covering him, I rush in and make a tackle in the back field. I am not being a 'blind' opponent, but rather I know what their hand is and am playing mine accordingly, if that makes sense.

As far as MWO goes, playing the meta means basing your strategy around what you are expecting your enemies to do. If say, Innersphere light rushes get really popular on a CW map, then playing the meta in that instance would be telling all your clan buddies to bring at least a handful of streak crows, but if the IS players correctly assumed you would be doing that, then they could change their plan to something else, thus, everyone is playing the meta, or trying to make their whatever as effective as possible against their enemy's most likely whatever. Meta can change based off any number of things, and is not something set in stone over a long period of time. I would say the biggest factors over what is "meta," at least in terms of builds in MWO, is what map you are playing on. 4xerLL Hellbringers might be meta on Boreal, but they are very far off in something like Viridian Bog.

[wanderer]

The meta hasn't truly changed under all the weapon shifts- put all the damage in the same spot as quickly as possible without any potential delay.

Solution's in my sig. You don't need dynamic convergence, you shouldn't have perfect convergence, you need -binary- convergence.

[Sandpit]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

...because there will always be something which is the most optimal for the environment we are in just like having a fair skin is OP in the colder climate. Several things can alleviate "the problem" though, such as:

• Hard rock-paper-scissors balancing, for example long-range-direct-fire always beats brawling always beats indirect-fire (LRM etc.) always beats long-range-direct-fire and so on. Each subcategory will have its own meta though, but at least there are more varied builds overall. This could make the game feeling less of a sim and more gamey which could be bad.
  
• Make the game non competitive such as by introducing PvE (section) where there is little pressure for performing as best as possible. You could always ignore the leaderboards but when other people depend on you, it's hard to not take the best.
  
• Vary the environments themselves. This makes the most sense and PGI have been certainly trying to do this up till now but the results are not that remarkable. Why?

Is there more? What do you think about the issue? Fill free to fill or chime in!

The "meta" in MWO is nothing more than the most optimal build based on min/max mathematics.

Nothing more

If you base your entire hangar, gameplay, strategy, etc. solely on the "meta", you're not going to do very well overall unless you're in a coordinated team that supports that.

The "meta" is basically just another scapegoat used for the most part. If you can't beat someone using a "meta" mech, it's usually not the mech that's that issue

[mogs01gt]

DovisKhan, on 26 January 2016 - 12:03 AM, said:

An CUAC20 Dire can unleash 160+ damage in 1 second and go back to cover, doing all that at ~400m range which is where most non huge map fighting happens. So Gauss whatever would not get a second shot

I'd like to see the build you are referring to and since when are UAC even remotely reliable vs lasers+gauss???

[MerryIguana]

I will always complain about TTK creep.

[Beatle1]

It seems like TTK went from " i feel like im trully piloting a huge tanky mech" in the close/early open beta to "Welcomne to warthunder comerad, now you will be one shoted by pixel perfect laser vomit lolpha cos you wanted to look if there is anything around the corner, enjoy". This game is seriously turining more and more into Hawken (hell even in hawken you cant be one shoted from ful health), This game completely lost the feeling that you are actually driving a huge walking tank and it feels more like you are driving slow paper mache that dies instantly if you even dare to do anything apart from hiding behind building all the time.

Edited by Beatle1, 26 January 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[MysticLink]

I mostly play autocannon builds. I like the sustained dps + I feel I can get two or 3 shots for the one laser vommit shot in peak a boo battles Maybe it's not the best trade, but it works ok for peakaboo.

Been playing 5 Ac5s on mauler lately. Been doing really well. Also, I win more then I lose because people don't expect the sustained damage of 5 ac5s.

Most matches played: 3 Ac 10 Ilya (Cataphract), 2nd most matches played is Kingcrab, 4 ultra ac5s. The 3rd most played and which I've been having a lot fun lately with his 5 ac5 mauler. All of them have more wins then losses.

I do good in thunderbolts aswell because they are heat efficient, but can't get laser vomit to work for me with clan mechs-too much heat not enough sustain, and I don't got all day to watch my team die while I'm recharging.

Edited by MysticLink, 26 January 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[DAYLEET]

It's the best meta i got to play so far. It certainly is better than the poptart era and what i heard about lurmagedon wasnt nice. I do wish we could entirely go away with less duration quirks.

[GrimRiver]

I tried meta builds and I think they suck big fat ones.

And the same for min-max builds too.

I always have to do my own tweak/overhaul to get them to run right for me.

I wouldn't be half way to tier 1 if I ran pure brawler/sniper builds.