67 replies to this topic

[Xavori]

From what I've learned playing, and what I've seen watching vids by the top players, teamwork, not skill, is what drives winning and losing. (Seriously, teamwork is severely OP and definitely needs nerfed )

So why then does "pilot skill rating" care whether you won or lost a match? I mean, if you yolo your light mech into a lance of assaults and get blown to smithereens, but your team wins, you still suck and should see your rating go down. On the other hand, if you're running around getting shots in when you can on a team that is getting overrun, doesn't that show more skill? (yes, I know if you can push your damage high enough, it can still go up even in a loss)

And while we're on the subject of more skill...

Why is doing lots of damage in an assault or heavy mech, which is pretty easy, more valuable to your pilot rating than tagging things or capping or harassing lurmy boats in a light mech even tho those things are much harder. I know I didn't suddenly become a better pilot when I switched from running almost all lights to heavies and assaults, by my pilot skill rating is finally (slowly) climbing out of the basement. In fact, I'd argue I'm getting to be a lazier pilot because of it.

[Johnny Z]

MechWarrior has the best PSR of any game. Period. I'm serious. Topic closed. More topics complaining about lack of content please.

[Scar Glamour]

There is a setting to turn off Tier display on front end. I highly recommend it. All of a sudden the whole Tier thing is nothing more than a bunch of funny arrows at the game end screen.

From the look of things it would save a lot of people tons of money on blood pressure medication too.

[El Bandito]

Winning = everything. Unless one is constantly carried by good pre-made team in group queue, those who win more consistently should rise above those who do not. Granted, the PSR calculation should be harsher on losses, but that's the gist of it. Damage alone does not get you wins, while capping can. Hence having "victory condition" as the prime PSR mover benefits the whole teamplay, as opposed to people hanging back and farming points, if PSR was only about personal scores.

And yes, the info warfare needs to be a thing, with appropriate rewards.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 January 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[Xavori]

El Bandito, on 25 January 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Winning = everything. Unless one is constantly carried by good pre-made team in group queue, those who win more consistently should rise above those who do not. Granted, the PSR calculation should be harsher on losses, but that's the gist of it. Damage alone does not get you wins, while capping can. Hence having "victory condition" as the prime PSR mover benefits the whole teamplay, as opposed to people hanging back and farming points, if PSR was only about personal scores.

And yes, the info warfare needs to be a thing, with appropriate rewards.

But if you just rush and cap in assault, you can be rest assured you get zilch movement on your pilot skill rating.

And winning is much more a function of just teamwork than anything to do with skill. It's easily the single most OP thing in the game. Heck, just getting a single lance that works together will win more quick matches than lose because those 4 can carry the rest of their pug.

Now I'm not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, but just not in pilot skill rating. Make it worth more than 35k C-bucks. Make it worth some extra GXP. But don't say, "If you win, your pilot rating can't go down. If you lose, you better have done boatloads of damage or your rating will go down."

And yes, definitely need more value placed in things other than kills and damage.

[TercieI]

Because winning is the point.

[Johnny Z]

As least as often as not my PSR doesn't go down on a loss. Rarely it goes up on a loss. Experienced and well equipped pilots can expect steady but slow increase in PSR. Isnt that the way it should be? Its not all about win and losses. It really is an excellent system that every other game is jealous of.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 January 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[TercieI]

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

As least as often as not my PSR doesn't go down on a loss. Rarely it goes up on a loss. Experienced and well equipped pilots can expect steady but slow increase in PSR. Isnt that the way it should be? Its not all about win and losses. It really is an excellent system that every other game is jealous of.

It's a glorified XP bar.

[Johnny Z]

TercieI, on 25 January 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

It's a glorified XP bar.

Negative and untrue. It really isn't true. If it were it is suggesting that every player has to get the same exp to get to the next tier. That isn't the case at all.

Players with wins and no PSR loss on losses or even PSR increases on losses will go up faster WAY faster than those relying on wins only. Possibility to remain static with no increase at all relativly is very real.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 January 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Lugh]

Xavori, on 25 January 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

But if you just rush and cap in assault, you can be rest assured you get zilch movement on your pilot skill rating.

And winning is much more a function of just teamwork than anything to do with skill. It's easily the single most OP thing in the game. Heck, just getting a single lance that works together will win more quick matches than lose because those 4 can carry the rest of their pug.

Now I'm not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, but just not in pilot skill rating. Make it worth more than 35k C-bucks. Make it worth some extra GXP. But don't say, "If you win, your pilot rating can't go down. If you lose, you better have done boatloads of damage or your rating will go down."

And yes, definitely need more value placed in things other than kills and damage.

As one that often runs in 4 mans I can say that there are large stretches where your 450 damage and a kill isn't enough to carry the team, even when the top guy in the lance with you is at 1000 damage, and the other two are both 0ver 500.

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Negative and untrue. It really isn't true. If it were it is suggesting that every player has to get the same exp to get to the next tier. That isn't the case at all.

Players with wins and no PSR loss on losses or even PSR increases on losses will go up faster WAY faster than those relying on wins only. Possibility to remain static with no increase at all relativly is very real.

As those languishing in the underhive can tell. It's more than relatively real. I still see people that I have NO idea how they made it in to a match with Tier 2's and Tier 1's other than the fact that the group queue just doesn't care.

[TercieI]

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Negative and untrue. It really isn't true. If it were it is suggesting that every player has to get the same exp to get to the next tier. That isn't the case at all.

Players with wins and no PSR loss on losses or even PSR increases on losses will go up faster WAY faster than those relying on wins only. Possibility to remain static with no increase at all relativly is very real.

No. You have to be aggressively detrimental to your team to even hold still. 6 cases: 3 up, 2 static, 1 down.

Edited by TercieI, 25 January 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Torric]

TercieI, on 25 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

No. You have to be aggressively detrimental to your team to even hold still. 6 cases: 3 up, 2 static, 1 down.

Largely depends on your average matchscore, which in turn heavily depends on the mech you are playing (to a degree that already breaks the whole "skill" component of the "personal skill rating").

Viable mechs: indeed very hard to go down, as you will break 400 matchscore fairly regularly, and often times even on losses.

Nonviable mechs: Winning/Losing is main influence, and progress is extremely slow to nonexistant.

[Nightmare1]

Xavori, on 25 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

From what I've learned playing, and what I've seen watching vids by the top players, teamwork, not skill, is what drives winning and losing. (Seriously, teamwork is severely OP and definitely needs nerfed )

So why then does "pilot skill rating" care whether you won or lost a match? I mean, if you yolo your light mech into a lance of assaults and get blown to smithereens, but your team wins, you still suck and should see your rating go down. On the other hand, if you're running around getting shots in when you can on a team that is getting overrun, doesn't that show more skill? (yes, I know if you can push your damage high enough, it can still go up even in a loss)

And while we're on the subject of more skill...

Why is doing lots of damage in an assault or heavy mech, which is pretty easy, more valuable to your pilot rating than tagging things or capping or harassing lurmy boats in a light mech even tho those things are much harder. I know I didn't suddenly become a better pilot when I switched from running almost all lights to heavies and assaults, by my pilot skill rating is finally (slowly) climbing out of the basement. In fact, I'd argue I'm getting to be a lazier pilot because of it.

'Cause PGI man.

[Roadkill]

TercieI, on 25 January 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

It's a glorified XP bar.

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

If it were it is suggesting that every player has to get the same exp to get to the next tier.

TercieI, on 25 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

You have to be aggressively detrimental to your team to even hold still. 6 cases: 3 up, 2 static, 1 down.

It's both.

It's sort of an XP bar because, over time, most people will reach Tier 1. Play enough games and you'll probably eventually get there. (Paul said at one point that it'd probably take 2500 games for an average person to reach Tier 1.)

It's also sort of a skill rating, because not everyone will eventually reach Tier 1. You need a minimal amount of skill to get that far. Also, more highly skilled players will reach Tier 1 faster.

[Xavori]

Roadkill, on 25 January 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's both.

It's sort of an XP bar because, over time, most people will reach Tier 1. Play enough games and you'll probably eventually get there. (Paul said at one point that it'd probably take 2500 games for an average person to reach Tier 1.)

It's also sort of a skill rating, because not everyone will eventually reach Tier 1. You need a minimal amount of skill to get that far. Also, more highly skilled players will reach Tier 1 faster.

If everyone gets to Tier 1, that's also not a skill rating. That's just a "don't suck" rating.

[TercieI]

Xavori, on 25 January 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

If everyone gets to Tier 1, that's also not a skill rating. That's just a "don't suck" rating.

That's maybe the best description I've heard.

[MoonUnitBeta]

ELO rating system is based on win/loss for individuals. ELO was used in MWO, but it was seeing entire teams of 12 as 1 entity, and it was handing out the same increase / decrease to every team member in that team regardless of how they played, so long as they won or lost they would move up or down in ELO.

PSR is the ELO rating system that's slightly modified to separate your 8% contribution from the rest of your team.


....

However, there is more that could be done to PSR and match score.

I would prefer if it wasn’t win/loss based, but instead performance based (where win/loss is a result of performance, not what dictates it). The performance is determined by couple things:
- End result of match outcome (not just straight up win/loss, but how close the win/loss was: 10-12 or 1-12, 690 resource to 750, 10 kills, but lost to base cap?) (0 is a tie. +x or –y is a variance that decides the possible direction of your rating and base accuracy of the match.)
- Compares your (total or average) team match score to the other team’s (closeness reduces the severity of the previous rating, a new rating is generated.)
- Compares your individual match score to your team (based on your teams average, closeness reduces the severity of the previous rating, and a new rating is generated.)

This narrows down the quality of the match, through match outcome, the pair of teams, and how well you were match-made into your own team.

The system is then given a confidence variable, where it checks it’s accuracy in previous matches you played in. The variable is a multiplier that goes towards or against the degree of change on your rating. High confidence = small change, low confidence = large change. The purpose is to get you into a placing where you belong, and the confidence is given an allowable tolerance (if it makes this tolerance, the system remains confident).
The more history it takes into account, the more resilient it becomes against performance streaks or flukes. 25-50 matches I think is a good history length to check against.

Anyways.
Pipe dream.
Might work, might not… One can dream though that we have a rating system that doesn’t take forever to change, and actually tells you if you’re good or not…

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 25 January 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[Mawai]

I won't go into why PSR isn't very meaningful.

However, one of the factors in pilot skill is the ability to work with your team. As you noted, if you work with your team, your rating goes up. Pilot skill is not limited to damage done which is dependent on mech, loadout and aim. It isn't limited to kills, assists, kmdd, solo kill ... but at least these have a numerical value.

Evaluating the ability of a player to contribute to winning is what ultimately defines player skill. Some players skillfully sacrifice their mechs at the right time by leading a push or turning an opponent so that their team mate can core them from behind. Or scouting and reporting or dropping a critical UAV. These actions are part of "skill" but are not easily evaluated in an objective fashion except by whether you win or not.

As a result, PSR is calculated based on individual match performace combined with whether you win or not to try to incorporate some estimate of the less tangible aspects of player skill. If PSR was solely performance then ligths would have much lower scores on average than heavies ... since skill in a light mech is often not exclusively about doing damage.

I was in a match recently where a Jenner ran by, engaged our team and dropped off the cliff on frozen city toward theta ... four mechs played "chase the jenner" despite a request on coms not to do so ... 20 seconds later in a nicely coordinated push from the side the bulk of the opposing team pushes in and wipes out those of us left at the top of the cliff and then mops up the rest at their leisure. It was an awesome play by the light pilot (who died for it) but won the match.

[Roadkill]

Xavori, on 25 January 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

If everyone gets to Tier 1, that's also not a skill rating. That's just a "don't suck" rating.

Roadkill, on 25 January 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's sort of an XP bar because, over time, most people will reach Tier 1.

Most != everyone.

There are people who are already plateaued at Tier 5 and Tier 4. But most people continue to gain PSR and will eventually reach Tier 1.

[MischiefSC]

Make a smurf account.

Play in T4/T5.

See people with several thousand matches under them there and struggling.

Understand PSR much better.