53 replies to this topic

[Red Shrike]

DrxAbstract, on 26 January 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

That has a lot to do with Lasers being easy to use, plentiful energy hard points on many variants and in general a very simple, no BS weapon class - that's the appeal. The 'community's focus' is not indicative of there actually being an issue with Lasers. Looking at the way Missiles and Ballistics behave in MWO suggests there's a problem with those weapons, and those weapons should be looked at, as well as Energy hard point counts. Lasers themselves are just fine... Except the Clan ER Large.

There's nothing wrong with the lasers themselves, what's wrong is the huge alphas people pull off with them. 3 alphas in 30 secs and the enemy is dead without so much as being able to return fire.

I can't poke my head around a corner without getting half my mech blown off with a single alpha.


Sooo, let me get this straight, you want ballistics and missiles to be just like lasers? Look at all these "LRMs OP" threads that cropped up with the addition of Polar Highlands, they're a taste of what would happen if you made them as easy to use as lasers.

The appeal of lasers is the hitscan and the ability to melt someone's face off in 3 alphas or less.

Edited by Red Shrike, 26 January 2016 - 04:56 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

Okay so please inform me how much you read of my OP, because if you did read it as much as you're claiming you would have seen where I said firing the ppc without charging would result in it's current iteration, that means Speed damage and projectile size. As you charge it, it would slow down but increase the damage and projectile size. And I never said it wasn't your right to "punch holes" in my OP, but it sure helps your image and rebuttal if you throw in some ideas that would be better than mine or even something along the lines of "Things are fine the way they are"

This line right here: "It potentially turns IS PPCs into slow Clan PPCs." spoken by me toward your 'PPC Charge-up' was it. If you know what the word "potential" means and follow the rest of the sentence while also knowing how Clan PPCs currently function, you'd know that would be the outcome... Obviously you didn't read my post.

My image is irrelevant and my rebuttal didn't need to have ideas or "things are fine" to be valid. What it did contain was counter-points that invalidated your ideas based on actual game conditions and their respective consequences (Like your inaccurate Gauss mechanics assertion) that you chose not to acknowledge. I didn't spell it all out because things like: "Remove ghost heat for every weapon and touch nothing else even for mechs with 7-13 energy hard points and it'll be fine." Should seem very, very bad if you sit down and actually think your proposals through... Which it doesn't appear you did.

Since you appear to value image: Starting out with statements suggesting you've been here since day one while later on admitting you've only actually been playing for half the time the game has been around... Doesn't exactly give one the impression anything you say should be listened to.

[wanderer]

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That being said, I think it's high time we removed some of these archaic additions and start reverting things back towards TT value.

And then huge chunks of what you mention have nothing to do with TT whatsoever.

I'd be fine with removing Gauss charge- except that's how they're preventing quad-gauss alphas. If there was some other way to restrict firing more than 2 at once, it'd be OK (just add the charge time to the reload cycle, making them instant fire at 5.75 sec reloads or so).

Ghost heat is in because there is no real overheat system. You'd see fewer alpha babies if heat actually slowed 'Mechs down, damaged (because given the current pile of ammo required, a straight up random ammo explosion is stupid) ammo happened, or it got tougher to aim , etc. etc. You need a real overheat system before taking the ghost heat kludge out.

And PPCs never, ever existed in the weird "Megaman Buster" mode, even using capacitors. They really do need to work on the projectile, though. It seems to have extraordinary trouble with terrain and such.

[DrxAbstract]

Red Shrike, on 26 January 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

There's nothing wrong with the lasers themselves, what's wrong is the huge alphas people pull off with them. 3 alphas in 30 secs and the enemy is dead without so much as being able to return fire.

Believe it or not Missiles and Ballistics in TT are not primary weapon systems - They're auxiliaries. Missiles are softening/crit seeker damage spreads, Ballistics are low-heat alternatives. Lasers are the primary weapons of Battletech.

On that point, yes, the problem isnt with Lasers but rather the iteration of Ballistics and Missiles in MWO coupled with heat mechanics being nowhere near strict enough to restrain Lasers properly. SSRM unreliability and SRM's spread making them useless well short of their maximum range doesn't help. There's no precedence for heat efficiency so Ballistics aren't worth their weight to use outside of Mechs with moderate-to-heavy Ballistic quirks.

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I can't poke my head around a corner without getting half my mech blown off with a single alpha.

I don't have this issue.. which suggests it's a personal issue and not something the game should be expected accommodate.

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Sooo, let me get this straight, you want ballistics and missiles to be just like lasers? Look at all these "LRMs OP" threads that cropped up with the addition of Polar Highlands, they're a taste of what would happen if you made them as easy to use as lasers.

That is not what I said... So no, you're pretty crooked in that regard. As for the LRM thing: Bring AMS, that's what it's for.

Quote

The appeal of lasers is the hitscan and the ability to melt someone's face off in 3 alphas or less.

Pretty sure I said that... Minus the whole '3 alpha facemelting' thing, that's all you. As I said above: Exploding after 3 alphas and losing mech parts while peeking is a piloting thing and you should not expect the game to accommodate you in that regard. It's not completely random and it doesn't just suddenly happen for no apparent reason; Play better.

[Hotthedd]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

I'll start off by saying that I've been here for the whole sha-bang. From the 6 ppc one shot stalker, LRM-a-geddon when they first introduced the artemis, all the way to the breakfast game when everyone had poptarts. I saw the anger presented when ghost heat was implemented and they added the charge feature to the gauss rifle.

That being said, I think it's high time we removed some of these archaic additions and start reverting things back towards TT value.

WooHoo! At this point I am excited to read the rest of the post and give it a big ol' LIKE!!

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

A whole bunch of stuff that does nothing to revert anything back to TT value.

And then, depression set in....

[Red Shrike]

DrxAbstract, on 26 January 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

Play better.

I'd love to, but I never seem to be able to. So, do tell, how do I play better?

btw, I don't mind LRMs. Heck, they're a welcome change from all the laser vomit.

[Lykaon]

Red Shrike, on 26 January 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

Boating should be curbed to the point where it's either very difficult or very risky. imo

And ghost heat is a functional mechanic that does this.

The issue is there are some mechs that in their stock configurations are "boats"

Awesome 8Q is a PPC boat
Hunchback 4P is a medium laser boat
The battlemaster in many variants also boats medium lasers.

[Khobai]

Quote

Keep the minimum range on PPCs and no minimum range on ERPPCs. So you'd need
ERPPCs to brawl.

this makes zero sense. why should the hotter ppc with longer range be the brawling one?

you got it backwards. min range on ppcs needs to be removed so theyre better at brawling than erppcs.

[Macksheen]

I'd be ok with removing the charge mechanic on gauss ... just give it a minimum range again, maybe even increase it a tad if you don't want it to feature in brawls.

I'm more annoyed by people in matches than the mechanics of the game ;-)

Adding more odd mechanics and crap to PPCs is annoying. We don't need arbitrary muck like that. Only thing I'd support is an idea someone else had a while back of a combined-charge delay - basically make it take longer to charge up weapons if multiple are charging at once. It's kinda unnecessary, as ghost heat does this for most things fairly well (except Gauss).

[Mister Blastman]

The JJ heat, JJ boost and JJ recharge nerfs hurt pop tarting more than any other thing they put into the game.

[Sandpit]

Joshua Obrien, on 26 January 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Well sir, I'd like to see you offer better ideas other than nonconstructive criticism. And I'm talking about TT as in Heat, damage and role warfare.
and as for the charge mechanic on the PPC http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor I know it's not cannon in terms of the timeline but then again most of the things in this game are already non cannon as it is.

There's quite literally dozens of threads discussing balance bud

There's probably more than that when it comes specifically to PPC and Gauss

I've seen some good ideas, but there's a few things that the community needs to be realistic about.

Ghost heat isn't going anywhere. It's just not. The entire game, weapon balance, mechs, everything balance is weighted on ghost heat. It's not going away. The game has been built with it too deeply ingrained into the system to be removed without a complete and total revamp of the entire game system.
That's simply not going to happen. PGI isn't going to go to that level of "reboot" in MWO.

A true heat scale is in the same boat.

While I agree with a lot of things said in those regards, realistically it's not going to happen any time in the near future IF, (and that's a mighty big if) they every choose to do it.

Between CW, Steam launch, getting some new content in, etc. they quite simply don't have the resources to include a huge revamp of major code and systems.

[Alan Davion]

Sandpit, on 26 January 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

There's quite literally dozens of threads discussing balance bud

There's probably more than that when it comes specifically to PPC and Gauss

I've seen some good ideas, but there's a few things that the community needs to be realistic about.

Ghost heat isn't going anywhere. It's just not. The entire game, weapon balance, mechs, everything balance is weighted on ghost heat. It's not going away. The game has been built with it too deeply ingrained into the system to be removed without a complete and total revamp of the entire game system.
That's simply not going to happen. PGI isn't going to go to that level of "reboot" in MWO.

A true heat scale is in the same boat.

While I agree with a lot of things said in those regards, realistically it's not going to happen any time in the near future IF, (and that's a mighty big if) they every choose to do it.

Between CW, Steam launch, getting some new content in, etc. they quite simply don't have the resources to include a huge revamp of major code and systems.

Which is exactly why the system should never have been introduced in the first place.

But, like all the bandaid fixes the game has seen over the years, they were panic induced and therefore not well thought out. The game does need a complete, top to bottom overhaul, the unfortunate fact is it just will never happen unless literally everything else is put on hold for however long it takes to do it.

That would mean no new mechs, maps, anything... For probably the better part of 6 months as they either put out a couple patches a month that slowly dial everything back to pre "WTF" moments, or just put it all into one massive update which we'd be better off uninstalling the game and re-installing the "New" game.

Personally, the two things I think would fix damn near every problem the game has is to make it "Stock Only, Run What Ya Brung", and to reduce the heat cap by half, as well as return all weapons to their normal TT heat values. You now have less weapons to fire all at once, and have to fire them that much slower to avoid massive heat build up.

This would in turn allow the armor values to be dialed back a bit to deal with the severely gimped damage output. It might also force people to have to use more real strategy like sending some lights around to flank behind the enemy. I know this happens already, but it does not happen enough is what I'm trying to say.

[wanderer]

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And ghost heat is a functional mechanic that does this.

It....gets rid of boating?

HA!

You really think so? I need to laugh harder

HA!
HAHAHAHAHAH
HA
HA!

Edited by wanderer, 26 January 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Khobai, on 26 January 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

this makes zero sense. why should the hotter ppc with longer range be the brawling one?

you got it backwards. min range on ppcs needs to be removed so theyre better at brawling than erppcs.

So that there is a drawback to brawling with ERPPCs. PPCs are not brawling weapons, nor should they be made into brawling weapons.

[Khobai]

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So that there is a drawback to brawling with ERPPCs. PPCs are not brawling weapons, nor should they be made into brawling weapons.

PPCs should definitely be brawling weapons.
ERPPCs should not be brawling weapons.

That way theres a reason to use BOTH.


PPCs need their min range removed
ERPPCs need their projectile velocity increased, and their cooldown increased
and both need their heat decreased

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2016 - 09:40 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Khobai, on 26 January 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

PPCs should definitely be brawling weapons.
ERPPCs should not be brawling weapons.

That way theres a reason to use BOTH.


PPCs need their min range removed
ERPPCs need their projectile velocity increased, and their cooldown increased
and both need their heat decreased

PPCs have a minimum range. they were never designed to be brawling weapons. ERPPCs are not good brawling weapons, either, due to heat, but they CAN at least be used, just not optimally.

Please don't advocate changes to the designed functionality of weapons. If you want to brawl, use LPLs for better brawling for the same tonnage and slots.

[JC Daxion]

To me, ghost heat should be reworked to a % of total damage/weapons fired.. The higher your damage/alpha, the more your ghost heat kicks up. Make players spread their weapon use around. That was the purpose of it in the first place. Now people just get around it by stacking different weapons.

have it on a raising scale.. maybe start it at 30 Damage.. then have the scale start at 1%, and ramp up to 100% for things like 80+ point alphas.

The other side of the scale could be total weapons fired, 8-10 SLP would start to kick in, so people would be hitting you in pairs. Again large lasers, and PPC's would fall under this as well.

Basically the scale would look more like an X... ghost heat would kick in with a few high damage weapons, Or loads of weapons firing at once... then the bulk of the heat would be all about High damage alpha builds. Now.. to figure out the code for it all...

[Macksheen]

wanderer, on 26 January 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

It....gets rid of boating?

HA!

You really think so? I need to laugh harder

HA!
HAHAHAHAHAH
HA
HA!

Not what I said. Ghost heat is the back-side way of attempting to control sustained rate of fire for weapon multiples.

Whether it does it successfully in all cases is a separate issue, as well as whether or not it effectively handles all boating situations.

But, you can read whatever you want into what I say. It is the internet ;-)

[Nick Tsunami]

I'd like to point a few things about TT, the lore, and ghost heat. I might be a lousy mwo pilot but I know my way around pretty well in TT, having played since BEFORE the clan invaded. Yep I'm that an old guy.

1.TT was never balanced, even before the clan. Whoever thinks any AC beside the AC20 was any good when compared to LRMs (vs ac2) or PPC and LL (ac 5 and ac10) probably never played 3025 battletech. Especially a 380 STD banshee or a 320STD Cicada. The only thing that made it balanced was that everybody was running the same mechs. And everybody was running the same few good mechs especially.

2. The clan was balanced only through bv system (with the rest of TT) and even that took 2 iterations. Custom mechs always over performed stock mech, even in TT and very few custom mechs were not boating weapons in TT. The same mechanic (optimization) led to the same results.

3. TT did not need ghost heat but that was only because you could not pinpoint all your damage at the same place. Otherwise, it would had to get rid of either customization or add something like ghost heat...

I do think that mwo actually plays closer to TT than most people think. Ghost heat forces you to either pace your shots or use alternate weapons, just like TT (stock mechs were never good at throwing horrendous alphas without massive overheat... That would definitely be a big departure from the "lore").

I like battletech a lot - and stil' run a TT mechwarrior campaign with a few friends. And to me, the mwo -gameplay- (not talking about the unit system and cw) is a lot of fun, fairly balanced, very playable, and not that unfaithful to the TT game. When I play my stock MAD 3R, it does feel like the TT should, and play quite similarly.

Sorry not to add salt (I bleed enough on the battlefield), but to me the gameplay could possibly be made better, but it is far from broken. I do like it a lot.

TLDR: mwo is actually much closer to TT than most realize. The gameplay is good, and the game is not broken.

[Hotthedd]

JC Daxion, on 26 January 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

To me, ghost heat should be reworked to a % of total damage/weapons fired.. The higher your damage/alpha, the more your ghost heat kicks up. Make players spread their weapon use around. That was the purpose of it in the first place. Now people just get around it by stacking different weapons.

have it on a raising scale.. maybe start it at 30 Damage.. then have the scale start at 1%, and ramp up to 100% for things like 80+ point alphas.

The other side of the scale could be total weapons fired, 8-10 SLP would start to kick in, so people would be hitting you in pairs. Again large lasers, and PPC's would fall under this as well.

Basically the scale would look more like an X... ghost heat would kick in with a few high damage weapons, Or loads of weapons firing at once... then the bulk of the heat would be all about High damage alpha builds. Now.. to figure out the code for it all...

Heat is not a factor in the trade and hide meta. Nothing will stop alpha striking short of an accuracy penalty.