55 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

I've been trying for a while now to come up with some builds based around the CUAC 20 and LBX 20 for my Clan assaults, but I have found it quite challenging based on the inherent weaknesses of these weapons versus other options.

The UAC 20's long burst, low velocity, and lack of ammo per ton make it difficult to justify as a main gun. It would be a little bit better if two could be boated, however, the CUAC 20 suffers a severe ghost heat penalty (220% extra heat!!) that makes firing two at once impractical in most situations. The only way two are remotely feasible in the same build is chainfire. Chainfiring two can send a fairly constant stream of 5 damage shells down range, sort of like an Ilya Muromets on steroids with half the range.

The woes of the LBX 20 are even worse. It has terrible spread which makes its useful range less than half of the listed optimal range. It is pretty good against lights or brawlers that try to get in close, but that hardly makes it worth the tonnage.

I have a thing for the big guns though, so I was determined to find a way to make it work. I tried a 2x UAC 20 setup on a WHK but didn't like it so much, very limited by range and ammo. I tried a triple UAC 20 on a DWF and that was also a (literally) hot mess. I messed around with an LBX 50 build using 2x LBX 20 and 1 LBX 10 on a DWF, but it was also just not very good or enjoyable.

Finally after a lot of mechlab time and thinking I settled on a build that I've been using successfully (occasionally) for a bit now in a DWF. It is 2x UAC 20, 1 LBX 20, 1 CERLL. The CERLL is headmounted and gives some long range poking ability that the build would otherwise desperately lack. I imagine the UAC 20s are pretty terrifying to get shot by. I am running modules for them so their optimal range is about 400 meters. I chainfire them at that range and as I close or if the target has open armor I start peppering them with the LBX 20.

Obviously this build is not meant to be meta or competitive, just a fun experiment to try and find a working setup using primarily the largest weapons available. It also serves pretty well to highlight the weaknesses of these weapons and illustrate some ways in which they could be reasonably improved without making them over powered.

First and foremost, the LBX series needs a big buff. The spread needs to be tightened considerable since ammo switching is apparently never coming. The LBX20 needs 25-40% tighter spread and the smaller ones need 20-25% tighter patterns to justify their tonnage.

Second, the CUAC 20 needs a velocity increase. It should be at least 1000 m/s. I personally think ALL the ACs (IS and Clan) should have a minimum velocity of about 1500 m/s and a top end of about 2000 m/s for the smallest ones. That would make them much more useful at their maximum ranges and much more competitive with lasers. Current velocities are very frustrating, unrealistic, and immersion breaking. The velocity of the AC20 series is currently artillery speed, not main battle cannon speed, and that needs to change.

I also don't think it would hurt to change the CUAC 20 to a 3 round burst instead of the current 4 rounds, however, if the velocity got a substantial increase I could live with it being 4 though.

Ammo per ton also needs an increase. The massive structure quirks given to many IS mechs are also an indirect nerf to Clan ammo per ton. Ammo levels need to increase by 10-20% to help compensate for this and even the playing field some.

I'm very interested to heart what the rest of the community thinks about the UAC 20 and LBX 20 weapons as your comments on my thoughts on them. Do you think they are worth the tonnage? What builds to you like to use with them, if any?

[Mcgral18]

With a 5 round burst, I was asking for a 1200M/s cUAC20 velocity...but they changed to 5 damage rounds instead.

The cUAC20 is largely acceptable where it is. Double damage for less weight.

The cAC20? Absolute rubbish. That one could use a velocity boost to 1200M/s, as could ALL cACs (not Ultras).
The cAC20 has a 5 bloody second cooldown, because 4.7+0.33


cACs need normalized cooldowns (like 3.8+0.33 for the cAC20), a projectile speed boost, and see how they go from there.

[Macksheen]

I ran this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7fc3204ff273018

I think I also had a 2xLBX, 2xLPL and maybe an ERML or extra ammo ... and another model where I filled out an S with missiles. LBX do not generate ghost heat - it's your brawly alpha brute.

Edited by Macksheen, 26 January 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[1Grimbane]

i run a loki with a lbx-20 and an adder prime with one in right arm with 3 sm las.... the lbx-20 is surgical up to 300m and no one expects an adder to pack that punch.. very fun

[Lostdragon]

Mcgral18, on 26 January 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

With a 5 round burst, I was asking for a 1200M/s cUAC20 velocity...but they changed to 5 damage rounds instead.

The cUAC20 is largely acceptable where it is. Double damage for less weight.

The cAC20? Absolute rubbish. That one could use a velocity boost to 1200M/s, as could ALL cACs (not Ultras).
The cAC20 has a 5 bloody second cooldown, because 4.7+0.33


cACs need normalized cooldowns (like 3.8+0.33 for the cAC20), a projectile speed boost, and see how they go from there.

I don't bother with the non-Ultra ACs, and I expect one day they might go away. I disagree about the CUAC 20's velocity though, it has the same velocity as the AC 20 but fires four times as many shells. Sure it can be double tapped, but I don't think that makes up for the spread inherent in a multi round system versus one projectile. If I could put IS AC20s on my DWF that would be a no brainer over CUAC 20s. A velocity increase on the UAC 20 would make that a more difficult choice, which it should be.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I got this folks.

Narc's HBK-IIC-C

Want LBX20 instead? Swap them out.

[Wintersdark]

The LBX's are bad.

There is no reason to use them over the cuacs. A CUAC20 pushes 40 damage into your target (and in one hit location) while the LBX pushes 20 damage into THREE locations *at best* at 100m. It's garbage.

Use it because it's cool, looks and sounds awesome, or possibly because you can run an lbx20+cuac20 without Ghost heat (I think?)...

But it is NEVER an optimal choice vs. A CUAC.

[Macksheen]

Wintersdark, on 26 January 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

The LBX's are bad.

There is no reason to use them over the cuacs. A CUAC20 pushes 40 damage into your target (and in one hit location) while the LBX pushes 20 damage into THREE locations *at best* at 100m. It's garbage.

Use it because it's cool, looks and sounds awesome, or possibly because you can run an lbx20+cuac20 without Ghost heat (I think?)...

But it is NEVER an optimal choice vs. A CUAC.

You can run the LBX + UAC w/o Ghost Heat - they aren't linked (and the LBX generates none at all).

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 26 January 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

The LBX's are bad.

There is no reason to use them over the cuacs. A CUAC20 pushes 40 damage into your target (and in one hit location) while the LBX pushes 20 damage into THREE locations *at best* at 100m. It's garbage.

Use it because it's cool, looks and sounds awesome, or possibly because you can run an lbx20+cuac20 without Ghost heat (I think?)...

But it is NEVER an optimal choice vs. A CUAC.

LB20x does not have Ghost Heat period...they're just bad.

[sycocys]

I wouldn't use the LBX20, its a pretty horrible weapon - JP swears by 4 LBX10s on a Dire though, haven't tested it yet, but it's probably fairly decent as the 10 spread isn't too bad.

The Uac20 though I was most successful running one on a Timber with 4 SRM6. Pretty ridiculous amount of face loading.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Unfortunately, every build that works with an LB20, would be more effective with a UAC20.

UAC20 is my favorite weapon in the game. When it refuses to jam on you, you're a mechanized god of war.

Been running my HGN-IIC-B to great brawling effect.

[Necromonger Commander]

UAC20 is jammed most of the time... I did get a 1200 damage match with a summoner. UAC20 is not bad for pop tarting since you land behind cover when it jams and you can run away till it unjams.

[Mechteric]

Hmmm may need to consider trying my dual uac20 hunchie with one of them swapped to an lb20x

[Necromonger Commander]

Hit reg is probably worse on the UAC20 than any other weapon in the game. I have unloaded mulitple times and point blank range on a non moving assault mech and scored less than 20 damage (expending 80+ damage in ammo).

[Khobai]

UAC20 is an absolutely horrible weapon. UAC10s are outright better. Especially since they got a massive 50% ammo boost over other UACs.

UAC20 = ~8dps, can only fire 1 without ghost heat, has 4 bursts, has stupid short range and bad velocity.

UAC10 = ~6dps, can fire 2 without ghost heat, gets 50% more ammo per ton, has 3 bursts instead of 4 so its easier to control/aim, has 50% better range, 50% faster velocity, better heat efficiency, lower jam rate. And two UAC10s take up the same number of critslots as one UAC20.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[1Grimbane]

lol you guys are re.tarded.... lbx-20 does just fine within 300m, outside of that it is trash plain and simple. it's a CIWS that excels midgame when armor has been stripped, it's use is situational but it is a beast in the right hands

but play around with both ultra and lb 20 and see what works best for you. it's personal play style so trial and error till you get where you want to be

Edited by 1Grimbane, 26 January 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Wintersdark, on 26 January 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

The LBX's are bad.

A CUAC20 pushes 40 damage into your target (and in one hit location) while the LBX pushes 20 damage into THREE locations *at best* at 100m.

Saying the UAC20 puts 40 damage into one location is pretty disingenuous. It is very hard to put all 8 shells into one spot if your target is moving, even harder if you are both moving in different directions, and basically impossible if the target is using defensive twisting or poking then moving back to cover. Lowering the shells fired from 5 to 4 and decreasing the delay between shells helped make it easier to consistently place damage but it is far from a certainty against opponents that understand how the weapon works and can cope with being shot.

The LBX20 also isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. At 100 yards against a light you will probably hit multiple locations, but against a larger mech it is possible to put all 20 points in a single location at 150m or less.Go in testing grounds and try it. Below 150 it is not too hard to get 18-20 pellets in one torso on a heavy or assault mech. The problem is most combat doesn't take place within that range. If the LBX20 had the same spread at 360 meters as it does at 150 meters now it would be a decent weapon.

sycocys, on 26 January 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

I wouldn't use the LBX20, its a pretty horrible weapon - JP swears by 4 LBX10s on a Dire though, haven't tested it yet, but it's probably fairly decent as the 10 spread isn't too bad.

The Uac20 though I was most successful running one on a Timber with 4 SRM6. Pretty ridiculous amount of face loading.

I've used the 4x LBX 20 and 6x LBX 5 and I think the later is actually better. The tighter grouping and lower cooldown works better for me, but ymmv and neither is as good as 4x UAC10 or 3x UAC5 and 2x UAC10.

[Khobai]

Quote

lbx-20 does just fine within 300m

No the LB20X is not fine at ANY range. The spread is so wide that half the pellets will miss a light mech like a jenner. The ridiculous spread makes the LB20X completely unusable.

The LB10X has the widest spread thats acceptable for an LBX weapon. But for some reason the LB10X didnt get the same 50% ammo per ton increase that the CUAC10 and AC10 got, so the LB10X fell even more behind those other autocannons.

To fix the LB10X it needs at least two things. 1) the same 50% ammo increase as other AC10s/UAC10s. And 2) its crit multiplier increased to x2.5 (that way it only takes 4 pellets to crit an item instead of 5 pellets)

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[1Grimbane]

if your gonna boat.... go uac-10's for instagibbiness and uac5's for duration and good dps over time, the ten's wreck face,

Khobai, on 26 January 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

No the LB20X is not fine at ANY range. The spread is so wide that half the pellets will miss a light mech like a jenner. The ridiculous spread makes the LB20X completely unusable.

The LBX10 has the widest spread thats acceptable for an LBX weapon. But for some reason the LB10X didnt get the same 50% ammo per ton increase that the CUAC10 and AC10 got, so the LB10X fell even more behind those other autocannons.

really.... my loki and adder beg to differ, sorry you suck with the lbx-20 as it's about personal play style you might do better with a weapon system i don't do well with. however.. the lb-20 IS very accurate close in and at about 240m you can one shot most stripped mechs just as you would with a regular ac/20. i also with great affect for me anyway use my adder's 'lb 20 to keep lights at bay away from main group or i just hunt lights with it. very fun

Edited by 1Grimbane, 26 January 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

my loki and adder

this speaks for itself.