21 replies to this topic

[x GARGOYLE x]

My Opinion

IS: Lasers and energy weapons :has better laser vomit with less heat for better range (since some lights can trade the small lasers for medium lasers not fearing overheat and death), can have more large lasers without heat penalty, and have the option to use the normal PPC that is more viable than the er versions. a Banshee with 3 lpl and 5 mpl can alpha strike 2 times without overheating for example.

Clan: Missiles and ballistics: while more spreaded they have more space in crit points and less tonnage allowing more efficiency in a general build.

Just talking about weapons not tech in general.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

So, Clan ballistics have fewer fans overall. While there's a broader variety (LB-X and UAC in all four classes), the regular and ULTRA ones fire in bursts instead of a single round. A lot of folks don't seem to care for that (though I'm plenty alright with it). LB-X isn't particularly popular, except sometimes in the -20 class, and even THAT is very situational.

While your'e right about the lasers, remember that the Clan ERML has virtually the same range, and nearly the same damage, as an IS LL, but weighs 4 tons less and takes up one less critical slot.

Comparing the lasers class-to-class, you CAN get a higher fire rate out of the IS models for less heat (especially with good quirks, which FEW Clan mechs ever have). But you still get less damage, and usually less DPS, out of the IS models. And THAT comes at a shorter range. Clan ERPPC is the same range and heat, but in addition to the 10 damage it also does up to 5.0 (2.5 times 2) splash damage, for a grand total of 15.0 damage to the IS model's 10.0 (though the value of the additional 5.0 damage is questionable, and can't really be considered part of its PPFLD).

Honestly, the Clan SPL is one of the BEST E weapons out there, limited only by its woefully short range. It still has a longer range than the IS SL for 1.0 tons, and does as much damage as an IS MPL for less heat than the IS ML. The things are RIDICULOUSLY powerful when they're in range. It DOES have 1.5 times the duration, but 0.75s is still pretty quick. The cooldown is the same as the IS SPL, sure. DPS is still more than 4/3 that of the IS version, at 2.0 per cSPL. If you can boat 6 of them (say, HBK-IIC-A) with something bigger and more powerful for longer-ranged engagement, you stay under ghost heat and get 12.0 DPS out of them (or an alpha of 36.0 with them). For an energy brawler, the cSPL is the weapon to beat.

[Hawk_eye]

Just my opinion and only on a weapon for weapon basis (i.e. without quirks)

Lasers:
Advantage Clans
Let´s look at the large laser, for example.
IS: 9 damage for 7/8 heat (LL/ER-LL) over 1/1.25 seconds, 5 tons, 2 slots
Clan: 11 damage for 10 heat over 1.5 seconds, 4 tons, 1 slot
While the longer burn time hurts Clans, the damage per second with 7.333 is actually a little better than for the IS ER-LL at 7.2 (yes, the IS-LL has better damage/time) and 1.1 damage per 1 point of heat isn´t significantly worse than the 1.125 per heat the IS ER-LL has.
So, in terms of damage per heat and damage per burn time, Clan and IS ER-LL are pretty similar, but the Clan ER-LL weights 1 ton less and only takes 1 slot.

As I said, the IS standard LL is better in terms of damage per heat/time, but let´s look at the Clan ER-ML in comparison.
IS LL: 5 tons, 2 slots, 9 damage, 7 heat, 1 second burn time, 450m optimal range --> 9 damage per second, 1.28 damage per heat, 1.8 damage per ton
Clan ER-ML: 1 ton, 1 slot, 7 damage, 6 heat, 1.15 burn time, 405m optimal range --> 6.1 damage per second, 1.16 damage per heat, 7 damage per ton.
Given you can put 2 Clan ER-ML + 3 DHS on your mech for a single IS LL, yeah, quite the superior weapon.

I´d give ACs to the IS, simply for the fact they shoot a single bullet instead of the stream Clan fires.

Missiles:
LRMs are hard to judge
On one hand, half weight gives a _massive_ advantage to the Clans, on the other hand, the "stream of missiles" thingy make them way easier to shoot down with AMS, especially massed AMS (but then, many people don´t mount those)
I guess I´d still give the advantage to the Clans.
SRMs are no contest at all, as are Streaks.

As for ghost heat, yeah, being only able to fire 2 ERLL compared to 3 for the IS and having ML/MPL linked, so you can only fire a combination of 6 of those whereas the IS can fire 6 ML _and_ 6 MPL at the same time without ghost heat hurts Clans a bit.
So Clans can have 2 C-LPL + 6 C-MPL for a 74 alpha for 24 tons and 56 heat, whereas the IS can (theoretically) fire 6 ML + 6 MPL + 3 LPL for a 99 Alpha for 39 tons and 69 heat.
In practice, I don´t think there is an IS mech with more than 8 energy hard-points, so it´s back to three LPLs + 5 MPLs for a 63 alpha at 31 tons and 41 heat
So yeah, I still think the Clans are better off here.

As I said, this is all without taking quirks in account, which, of course, change everything.

[Leone]

Inner Sphere: Ballistics, hand actuators down.

Clan: Energy and Missiles.

~Leone

[Nerdboard]

Are you simply asking for opinions here or are you looking for arguments as to why some weapons are better than others?

Personally I like the following:

IS: ML, LL, LPL, SRM, AC/5, AC/20, PPC
Clan: SPL, MPL, LPL, all Ultra-AC, Artemis-SRM

On a more 'objective' note: The IS LL seems do dominate large parts of the field. It's heat efficiency is alright and the duration manageable and many mechs are heavily quirked for that thing. It is also due to the quirks that you - imho - can not really compare ERML and LL anymore. Basically any mech that runs it on CW or competetive play has at least 10% better stats on it than an unquirked LL.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

As I said, this is all without taking quirks in account, which, of course, change everything.

The quirks, unfortunately, make all the difference. Things like +30% energy range on mechs like the RVN-4X turn LLs into ERLLs without the burn duration or heat penalties, and PPCs into (almost) ERPPCs for no extra heat.

On a level playing field, large clan lasers actually still don't have the advantage despite the apparent higher DPS. With the nerf to clan heat capacity, clans must either go with far fewer lasers and tons of CDHS to get reasonable staying power, or they can go with loads of lasers and hope to burst down the opponent with one alpha. Which isn't a very good prospect, considering the increased burn duration for every single clan laser.

Clan ballistics spread damage. They don't PPFLD like the IS ones do, which is a curse for longer-range shots (try making all those UAC10 shots hit a single component on a moving target, or all those UAC5 shots for that matter) but a blessing for close range brawls (your UAC20 should normally hit at least one 5-damage pellet on that light that's circling your ***). Mixed bag, here.

If LBXes were anywhere remotely useful, the clans have all the LBX versions that the IS don't. And the LBX2 with CD module and some small ballistic cooldown quirks is good for a laugh (it fires like a MG!)

I'd say the -only- place where clans win out over IS is their missiles. Sure, they do 2 damage/missile instead of 2.30/missile, but their launchers only weigh 0.5 tons per two tubes. IS SRMs weigh twice as much for the same launcher size, and this means you can pack big SRM alphas as a backup weapon instead of a primary weapon. It also means that lights can feasibly boat loads of SRMs without sacrificing too much engine or armor.

C-SSRM is something that IS fanboys cry about. Every. Single. Day. What they don't realise is that a good C-ASRM4 user will wreck their mech's shiny metal backside more than twice as fast than one with C-SSRM6. Seriously. Just learn to use standard SRMs, and get over the SSRMs. They're not worth it. If you're trying to splat something close up, standard SRMs put out more deeps. If you're trying to splat something further away, you're going to spread damage really badly - or they'll run behind a building and you don't get a splat at all.

[Tuann]

just read and watch this :

http://mwomercs.com/...80#entry4974710

[Kmieciu]

People say that UACs are bad because they fire in bursts, but the fact is the UAC20 has fires 4 rounds within 0.3 seconds. That's faster than any laser out there. It you are fine with using IS pulse lasers, then you'll be fine using clan UACs.

UAC5 Direwolf still has better firepower than the best IS ballistic mechs...

[B0oN]

Inner Sphere got what they wanted, I guess .
Easymode supremacy .


^^

[Nightshade24]

On paper- clans, but there is several variables in game that changes that.

In practice, having IS weapons on clans (ie 12 medium laser nova, or a 12 small pulse laser nova.... or 6 ER large laser direwolf etc) or having Clan weapons on IS (ie medium mechs spewing 2 large pulse, 3 er mediums... atlas with 4 x SSRM 6, 1 x UAC 20, 2 x Er large laser, 2 x er medium laser) will be OP.

[ice trey]

Pretty much every clan weapons system is better, hands down. I can't think of any instance of a clan weapons system being worse.

Many clan players perceive this as false, since they're getting outranged by inner sphere ERLLs.

The thing is, those ERLLs that they're facing are coming from the most quirked builds. Tbolts, etc. On any mech other than those specific few quirked builds, they're considerably worse. Often, quirks also encourage boating, as well. If a mech has Medium Pulse Laser quirks, you just know that the player is going to strip everything to fit as many MPLs on that thing as possible, screw balance.

IS weapons aren't better, it's just that the community has been coaxed to powergame the customization system, making only a select handful of chassis "Competitive", and the rest left to rot in obscurity for "The bads". Up until the next wave of quirking, anyway.

On the other hand, in the case of Clan mechs, it's more just about hardpoints, top speed, and whether or not it has ECM. Weapon quirks for the clans are mostly limited to heat projectile speed, and duration, A clan ERLLs' range isn't any different on a Summoner than it is on a Timber Wolf. By default, it's better than the inner sphere ones.

PGI don't seem to be doing much of anything to change this mentality. I'd be more for general quirks (Energy, Ballistic, Missile), but the current system just further pushes the power gamers to use fewer builds.

Edited by ice trey, 25 January 2016 - 01:28 AM.

[x GARGOYLE x]

Nerdboard, on 25 January 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Are you simply asking for opinions here or are you looking for arguments as to why some weapons are better than others?

Personally I like the following:

IS: ML, LL, LPL, SRM, AC/5, AC/20, PPC
Clan: SPL, MPL, LPL, all Ultra-AC, Artemis-SRM

On a more 'objective' note: The IS LL seems do dominate large parts of the field. It's heat efficiency is alright and the duration manageable and many mechs are heavily quirked for that thing. It is also due to the quirks that you - imho - can not really compare ERML and LL anymore. Basically any mech that runs it on CW or competetive play has at least 10% better stats on it than an unquirked LL.

I want to see what people think, so i can decide this as a point to consider between clan and is side.

[x GARGOYLE x]

ice trey, on 25 January 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

Pretty much every clan weapons system is better, hands down. I can't think of any instance of a clan weapons system being worse.

Many clan players perceive this as false, since they're getting outranged by inner sphere ERLLs.

The thing is, those ERLLs that they're facing are coming from the most quirked builds. Tbolts, etc. On any mech other than those specific few quirked builds, they're considerably worse. Often, quirks also encourage boating, as well. If a mech has Medium Pulse Laser quirks, you just know that the player is going to strip everything to fit as many MPLs on that thing as possible, screw balance.

IS weapons aren't better, it's just that the community has been coaxed to powergame the customization system, making only a select handful of chassis "Competitive", and the rest left to rot in obscurity for "The bads". Up until the next wave of quirking, anyway.

On the other hand, in the case of Clan mechs, it's more just about hardpoints, top speed, and whether or not it has ECM. Weapon quirks for the clans are mostly limited to heat projectile speed, and duration, A clan ERLLs' range isn't any different on a Summoner than it is on a Timber Wolf. By default, it's better than the inner sphere ones.

PGI don't seem to be doing much of anything to change this mentality. I'd be more for general quirks (Energy, Ballistic, Missile), but the current system just further pushes the power gamers to use fewer builds.

It would be interesting to see general quirks.

[Bud Crue]

x GARGOYLE x, on 25 January 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

I want to see what people think, so i can decide this as a point to consider between clan and is side.

In that case a mathematical comparison won't help much. Clanners will say IS is OP in all ways and then point to the ERLL range and then perhaps the massed LRM fire of IS LRMS (vs the streams in Clans) and finally the mult-shot mechanism of Clan auto cannons. IS players will point to the clan ERML vs the ML and note that the 1 ton clan ERML is more like a 5 ton IS LL.

What's best in all of that? Who knows. All I know is that "best" doesn't matter as the meta seems to be LPLs and as many as you can fit with a smattering of medium lasers or a ballistic to taste. This appears to be the case with both Clan and IS builds. See so-called meta builds on metamechs.com for example.

[IronEricP]

ice trey, on 25 January 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

IS weapons aren't better, it's just that the community has been coaxed to powergame the customization system, making only a select handful of chassis "Competitive", and the rest left to rot in obscurity for "The bads". Up until the next wave of quirking, anyway.

My 500+ damage matches in Urbies laugh at meta! (In normal drops mind you, not CW )

As to the main thrust of this thread, I think that yes, quirks make IS weapons REALLY good in some cases. BUT, weapon for weapon, crit for crit, Clan weapons still hold the edge in many areas. Less tonnage and crit slots means clan mechs can mount more gear in most cases (Ice Ferret not withstanding!). Sure there are heat issues because Clans only have ER or Pulse versions to choose from, but they can usually fit extra HS to compensate. An extra Missile launcher or two, an AC that fits only because it takes up less crit slots (though locked upgrade slots makes this only 1/2 as useful as it would otherwise be) or a 1 Ton active probe that fits that 1 slot left in the torso... the list goes on.

Ultimately, Clan mechs still usually end up with a bigger ALPHA for their tonnage, or a similar ALPHA with greater speed to get into position. They also have, as some have noted, the ability to NOT boat, NOT specialize, and still be a threat. A Timber Wolf or Mad Dog can bring along a solid barrage of LRMs or SRMs, and still bring the right lasers to offset their range profiles. As long as they are smart and use the weapons seperately, heat will still be manageable. An IS mech, with a balanced loadout, that is considered a LEGITIMATE threat at all ranges? Doable, but not as easily. With IS, something has usually gotta give (most likely, speed). A carefully constructed Clan mech can have it all.

[Rogue Jedi]

on paper the Clan equipment is superior usualy lighter, longer range or more damage per shot, often 2 of those.

however much of the IS stuff is in practice better, the fact that almost every IS weapon is cooler and has a shorter discharge time may not sound like much but is in fact a significant advantage, I play both and usualy prefer the IS stuff.

despite the fact that the Clan UAC20 has a faster rate of fire I much prefer the IS AC20 for the fact that one hit makes a significant dent in whatever it hits rather than potentially light hits on 4 components, UAC5s are fine on ether side, however the Clan Gauss Rifle is superior to the IS Gauss, weighing 3 tons less with no down side

IS SPL and MPL are in my opinion superior to Clan versions, you cannot compair the Clan ERML and ERSL to the IS ML and SL as they are different weapons. the Clan and IS LPL are both great, the Clan ERLLs superior range and damage are osfet by lower heat and shorter discharge on the IS ERLL

LRMs are roughly equal with Clans being lighter but more vulnerable to AMS than IS, Clans have the edge on SRMs and SSRMs but as others have said the SSRMs are not nearly as useful as they seem, with the possible exception of some Mediums (Stormcrow and HBK-IIC) I have found regular or Artemus SRMs to be far superior to Streaks

Clan ERPPCs are better than IS ERPPCs but I cannot use PPCs anyway, the projectile velocity is too slow, and no Mech can safely handle the heat from more than 2 ERPPCs

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 25 January 2016 - 09:11 AM.

[Hawk_eye]

Just one thing I´d like to point out to those who said that the Clan ER-LL´s advantages are offset by the shorter burn-time of the IS ER-LL.
The thing is, if you get back into cover after shooting 1.25 seconds (instead of staying out in the open the full 1.5 your CER-LL burns), you do a tiny bit _more_ damage than the IS ER-LL in the same time.
So if you are bothered by the longer burn-time of your CER-LL, just cut the expose-time and be satisfied with the ~9.5 damage you deal (compared to the 9 damage, the IS ER-LL deals in the same time)

Again, this is _just_ the weapon. If an IS pilot puts those ER-LLs on a mech with a serious burn-time and range quirk, things are different.
And seriously, while I don´t like the whole quirk system one tiny bit (and I´m saying this as an exclusively IS pilot), doing away with all quirks without something _else_ to compensate (16 IS vs. 10 Clan would be my favorite - and yes, I know it will never happen) would make the Clans OP like hell.

With quirks, I feel the balance between Clan and a couple (actually, quite a few) of IS mechs is pretty good (hey, Clanners are complaining IS is OP and IS-players complain Clan is OP --> good balance ). Unfortunately, any IS mech that doesn´t have significant quirks is left in the dust, so to speak.

[x GARGOYLE x]

Antecursor Venatus, on 25 January 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Just one thing I´d like to point out to those who said that the Clan ER-LL´s advantages are offset by the shorter burn-time of the IS ER-LL.
The thing is, if you get back into cover after shooting 1.25 seconds (instead of staying out in the open the full 1.5 your CER-LL burns), you do a tiny bit _more_ damage than the IS ER-LL in the same time.
So if you are bothered by the longer burn-time of your CER-LL, just cut the expose-time and be satisfied with the ~9.5 damage you deal (compared to the 9 damage, the IS ER-LL deals in the same time)

Again, this is _just_ the weapon. If an IS pilot puts those ER-LLs on a mech with a serious burn-time and range quirk, things are different.
And seriously, while I don´t like the whole quirk system one tiny bit (and I´m saying this as an exclusively IS pilot), doing away with all quirks without something _else_ to compensate (16 IS vs. 10 Clan would be my favorite - and yes, I know it will never happen) would make the Clans OP like hell.

With quirks, I feel the balance between Clan and a couple (actually, quite a few) of IS mechs is pretty good (hey, Clanners are complaining IS is OP and IS-players complain Clan is OP --> good balance ). Unfortunately, any IS mech that doesn´t have significant quirks is left in the dust, so to speak.

Could i ask if the banshee 3m (i think this one is the energy boat variant) is balanced compared with the clan? I loved the looks of the banshee but i don't know if it's better to do a laser vomit on it or in a warhawk for example.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

x GARGOYLE x, on 25 January 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

Could i ask if the banshee 3m (i think this one is the energy boat variant) is balanced compared with the clan? I loved the looks of the banshee but i don't know if it's better to do a laser vomit on it or in a warhawk for example.

Google: "WubShee"

You're welcome.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

So, Clan ballistics have fewer fans overall. While there's a broader variety (LB-X and UAC in all four classes), the regular and ULTRA ones fire in bursts instead of a single round. A lot of folks don't seem to care for that (though I'm plenty alright with it). LB-X isn't particularly popular, except sometimes in the -20 class, and even THAT is very situational.

I believe IS ballistics should fire multiple pellets like the Clan ballistics, with IS firing fewer or same amount of pellets while increasing the velocity back to the pre-nerf speeds.