38 replies to this topic

[Dave Korhal]

What situations is the LB 10-X AC "Shotgun" good in? I'm outfitting a tanky Atlas D-DC, and my reticle seems to shake too much while I'm getting pounded to accurately fire the one-shot ACs. I went with the "Shotgun" in the hopes I can still hit something with it no matter how much fire I'm taking. Is this a good way to use it?

[Blue Frog]

The best situation is when the target mech's component is stripped of armor. Then you have a chance to get a critical hit and take it off. Otherwise, it's just ten damage, but in ten one damage slugs, so if you miss some, you don't get the benefit of the damage. The damage may also spread over multiple components rather than be concentrated.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

1) use 2 of em
2) use em super close, or dont at all

[Ingga Raokai]

In short, when the enemy is open internal, say armor stripped on left torso, then the lbx will be useful shoot at that left torso.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

What situations is the LB 10-X AC "Shotgun" good in? I'm outfitting a tanky Atlas D-DC, and my reticle seems to shake too much while I'm getting pounded to accurately fire the one-shot ACs. I went with the "Shotgun" in the hopes I can still hit something with it no matter how much fire I'm taking. Is this a good way to use it?

No.

The LB-10X has a little bit of an identity crisis. It's functionally a late-game weapon, best for mopping up damaged enemies. But its weight and size and ammo requirement make it poorly suited to this, as the BIG gun needs to NOT take 10 points of critical damage before the enemies are opened up for crits, and the ammo has to stay intact too.

Now, if an LB-10X worked as in the LORE, where one could SELECT the ammo type for it, then it would be boss A. F. Sadly, that's not in the cards. At least, not any time soon.

So, if you're gonna tote one of these shotfuns (intentional misspelling, Borderlands 2 habit, apologies), you'll want it on either A.) a mech designed to be a late entry into the match (BAD teamwork there, and great way to get focused down in seconds), or B.) Pretty much a derp build.

But for YOUR purpose, that's just not a cool idea. The spread isn't THAT great, that it's going to keep rounds on target where they'd otherwise whiff. The SPREAD is itself the weapon's greatest shortcoming against targets that still have their ARMOR.

I used to use it with LIMITED success on a Shadow Hawk, along with a couple MLs and a bunch of SSRM2s, and a big engine, as a light mech hunter. Even then, the Kintaro (KTO-18 I think) was a better light hunter. The idea, though, was to seek out enemy lights trying to get behind my team, wear down the armor a bit with the SSRMs and MLs, and then open up that big shotfun on them once the armor started to strip. Again, it worked ALRIGHT, but nothing to blow your skirt up.

To the core problem behind your question, that of solid ballistic(s) to help you do damage when you're experiencing lots of screen shake, I might suggest the UAC/5. Your AS7-D-DC has TWO ballistic hard points in that RT. Put a PAIR of UAC/5s in there, and YOU be the one inducing screen shake in your enemies. Further, with the relatively high rate of fire, you have a better chance of landing your return-fire shots. Just keep spamming them, and have at least one button for them both on a single fire group, chain-fired. SPAM it at someone who's AC-spamming you. (Or, y'know, try not to get focused by your enemies in the first place, but I think we're talking coulda-woulda-shoulda here.) Important point here? "Do unto others, before they can do unto you. And make it hurt." I get it. Even if you CAN get into range to get that big AC/20 into the fight, and you CAN get the first shot, if that doesn't drop the enemy right away then the LONG cooldown time on that gun leaves him plenty of time to hammer back with the UAC/5s. The DakkaCrab will eat your lunch like that (4x UAC/5 is POTENT).

Also, hint here: Even in an ATLAS, with armor front-loaded to 100+ points front CT, it is ILL-ADVISED to stare-down anything with autocannons. Screen shake is screen shake, whether you're 20 tons or 100, and dakka tends to eat the armor up FAST.

TL;DR- LB-10X is a bad call, especially for your needs. If the AC/20 isn't getting it, then try a pair of UAC/5s. And work on not getting INTO those situations, where enemy dakka is screen-shaking you out of your aim.

GOOD LUCK!

[segeri9]

And then, there's the CN9-D.... If you REALLY want to rock an LB-10X, invest in this mech along with the cooldown mod. Designed to be built with a large engine, you can cruise on down the flanks, get in close, and pound them non-stop. Sure the spread is still not the best, but you're practically using an autoshotgun with it. Leading with your shield arm, then twisting to aim and rain all those pellets at your enemy is just satisfying.

[Rogue Jedi]

as others have said the LBX line works best against stripped internal components, however there is another good use for them, they are the best ballistic type for hitting Light Mechs, those annoying 120+kph Mechs which I love and assault pilots hate because they have trouble hitting them, your AC10 will probably miss if you fire at anything resembling range, assuming the Light pilot is somewhere near competent, but the LBX10 with its shotgun type burst is likely to hit with at least a few pellets provided you aim reasonably well

[The Basilisk]

Overall I would say the LB-X weapons are detrimental for any kind of build.
It can be a very funny weapon and or for pure money farming if you know you are simply a bad pilot.
But you do not learn anything out of using it ( except maybe what you should not do at all )

There are exactly 3 IS Battlemech variants I tried that could field a Lubalin Extended Class 10 and be anything that at least looks like successfull.
And you will realy be not of much use to your team !!!

Illya Muromets with 3 LBX-10
Early game do not push ahead !!!
Fire single rounds to reap assists and shadow bigger mechs.
Aim a bit higher to get the maximum out of screenshaking enemys and blinding them.
In mid game look out for damaged mechs with red or gone armor, get in and fire full bursts.
Look out for their compagnons maybe you find a stray assault Muhahahaha.

Mauler MAL-1R
I think the 1R or 1P will do this best. They give you 15% ROF the MX-90 gives you range and projectile velo +25%...
You will be slower as an Direwhale but you can literaly chainfire those guns for 2 mins straight and absolutely nobody will like to see that up close.
Remember with elite done and with an ROF module you do far more than 10dps
Had several occassions where enemy mechs fired at me under 300m and missed because they never where able to see tthrough the shake, smoke and flames.
But as I said you are deadly slow.
Only way to compensate for that is that you realy have to know the maps.
I do not need to spell out what happens when you get behind enemy mechs.
Lights or mediums simply desintegrate, heavy may even be able to turn in time but its not very likely.
Ironicaly I found Cataphracts and Whammys fare worst against LBX
Be carefull with other assaults though.
Advantage is most Assaults have that large hitboxes you do not distribute too much dmg once you got under 300m.

AS7-D-DC
You depend heavylie on your ECM to get in close but when you do you have 3 SRM 6 and 2 LB-X to get from every enemy an hillarious ammount of dmg for your money purse.

Edited by The Basilisk, 28 January 2016 - 02:45 AM.

[Havyek]

I've had some success with the ENF-5D running 2 LPL and LBX10.

As has been said already, it's a weapon that has limited use on anything but open internals, the 5D's bonus to LBX spread makes it pack a bit more of a punch to armored components, but it's still a (very heavy) secondary weapon as the 2 LPLs are the ones that do most of the damage.

The nice thing about it is that the LPLs pack enough of a punch that they can strip armor off lightly armored areas (backs) and that opens them up in 1-2 shots to the LBX's crit ability.

[Chados]

There is only one mech I run an LB10X on. The Summoner Prime. This is my dedicated group-queue ride. SMN-P omnipods have LB10 quirks that reduce spread and up velocity. Paired with an ER PPC, it is a nasty combo at all ranges out to about 750m. I top it off with a LRM10 just for harassment value.

For anything else, I find that an AC/5 with Cooldown module tends to answer with a little more versatility.

[aaykeem]

I ran a Marauder 5M with dual LB10Xs for the previous "kill most damage dealt" event. It did very well for that particular task . Problem is, you rake in the damage done, but you're not being efficient with it, at all. And once you start firing at medium range and beyond, the damage you get in return is not going to be very funny anymore. Any combination of (U)AC10/5/2 to fit the same amount of hardpoints and tonnage will be a lot more efficient at actually getting kills, imho.

They're a very fun and satisfying weapon to run tho. I think The Basilisk sums it up quite nicely.

Edited by aaykeem, 28 January 2016 - 07:05 AM.

[Spheroid]

The LBX is a garbage weapon. Don't use it. The advanced gyro module(which reduces screen shake) is only 2 million. Not that much more than the 800k(plus ammo) of the lbx.

Also screen shake =/= reticle shake. Learn to shoot through it.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Sadly LBs are not good weapons. Most of them are only effective at about 150 meters or less. Other weapons are better at killing components anyways, which makes the increased critical chance pointless.

Your best bet is to not use them unless you know the enemy will be within 150 meters.

Edited by Rouken, 28 January 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Last year, I got double rewarded the KGC-000L. I named one of them "Pokey" with dual AC/20. The other one I named "Speedy" and mounted dual LBX10.

Speedy will shred components late match. She's loads of fun when all the cards fall into place. That, however, is rare. People play LBX10 loadouts not for efficiency, but because they like the weapon. Don't expect to dominate matches with it. Use it because you love it.

[Bud Crue]

Spheroid, on 28 January 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

The LBX is a garbage weapon. Don't use it. The advanced gyro module(which reduces screen shake) is only 2 million. Not that much more than the 800k(plus ammo) of the lbx.

Also screen shake =/= reticle shake. Learn to shoot through it.

But it sounds super cool!

Though I no longer run it, my time with my 4 LBX Mauler was an auditory delight (and sometimes a lot of fun). I still run my 2 LBX IV-4 (named "the Hobo") on Vitric, 2nd or 4th wave (which wave depends on if and how much damage we have managed to do to the enemy wave still standing).

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 January 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Sandpit]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

What situations is the LB 10-X AC "Shotgun" good in? I'm outfitting a tanky Atlas D-DC, and my reticle seems to shake too much while I'm getting pounded to accurately fire the one-shot ACs. I went with the "Shotgun" in the hopes I can still hit something with it no matter how much fire I'm taking. Is this a good way to use it?

Well you CAN use it like that. Anything beyond about 400 meters though is going to be more for the psychological effect than anything else as your damage is so spread and minimal that it's just not going to do much.

In a close-range brawl and late-game situations those LBX cannons can really shine though. Their ability to get crits once armor is ripped off are phenomenal.

[Husker Dude]

segeri9, on 27 January 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

And then, there's the CN9-D.... If you REALLY want to rock an LB-10X, invest in this mech along with the cooldown mod. Designed to be built with a large engine, you can cruise on down the flanks, get in close, and pound them non-stop. Sure the spread is still not the best, but you're practically using an autoshotgun with it. Leading with your shield arm, then twisting to aim and rain all those pellets at your enemy is just satisfying.

I think that the CN9-D offers probably the best platform for the weapon, especially given the cooldown quirks allowing near non-stop fire. Early in matches it's not going to make too much of an impact, as the spread doesn't allow you to focus down specific components, but as the match progresses and enemy mechs have lost armor and are exposed, the weapon becomes more dangerous and the Centurion is fast enough to seek out and engage the most damaged targets.
Probably not a competitively viable weapon, but yeah, it can be fun if you're messing around.

[Koniving]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

What situations is the LB 10-X AC "Shotgun" good in? I'm outfitting a tanky Atlas D-DC, and my reticle seems to shake too much while I'm getting pounded to accurately fire the one-shot ACs. I went with the "Shotgun" in the hopes I can still hit something with it no matter how much fire I'm taking. Is this a good way to use it?

Any situation is good.
Some like having two LB 10s. Myself, I enjoy combining the LB 10 with an AC/5. Their round travel times are similar, it gives an accurate punch down the center, their firing times don't overlap so I can keep delivering a "Pa-pow! Bang! Pow! Bang! Pow-ang! Bang! Pow! Bang! Pow! Pa-pow!" etc. Really gets an enemy shake going and allows you to make mincemeat of their armor quickly especially up close.

LBs as people say are extra effective after armor is gone. No denying this. But there's nothing wrong with delivering a pounding of it during combat. It keeps people from knowing where you are aiming, which confuses them in what to protect. It also leaves no openings for a quick return fire and twist to protect; there's just not enough time!

Some examples using the LBX and AC/5 (or AC/2) combination.



This is an AC/2 and LBX combination. Supplemented with streaks and 3 ML on a Highlander. I recommend going with AC/5 whenever possible alongside an LBX, but if you can't fit it on mechs other than the Atlas, this'll work well too.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Dave Korhal, on 27 January 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

What situations is the LB 10-X AC "Shotgun" good in? I'm outfitting a tanky Atlas D-DC, and my reticle seems to shake too much while I'm getting pounded to accurately fire the one-shot ACs. I went with the "Shotgun" in the hopes I can still hit something with it no matter how much fire I'm taking. Is this a good way to use it?

Hi! I love the LB-10X autocannon. You can too, provided you pay less attention to people saying 'It's never good', and more attention to the way it functions and what it's actually good at. Please note- I use both the AC/10 and the LB-10X, but I use them differently and would not consider one for the other an equal substitution or an automatic upgrade for any 'mech, regardless which way you're talking.

In your specific case: It's either okay or not so great depending.

You've not quite given enough information here to tell if an LB-10X is a good fit for your 'mech and situation, is the main problem. I don't know from your post what targets you're shooting at when you have your shake issues, I don't know how far you are from them, I don't know what speed your Atlas is, I don't know what you do when you're getting screen shake, and I don't know what condition you're in at the time.

Given that, I'll go over the strengths (and weaknesses) of both forms of AC/10, and use these to show reasons to pick (or not pick) either one, specifically as relates to an Atlas.

The LB-10X:

• Spreads shot. This makes it easier to hit targets. Within about 100-150 meters, this spread is negligible on anything but a light 'mech and even on a light 'mech rarely matters much within 75m or so. If you're fighting within the 'negligible spread' range, it's not going to get noticeably easier to hit, either.
  
• Spreads shot. This makes it easier to snapfire and still hit something. From about 150-400 meters, this spread is still tight enough that you'll score multiple damage on a target, provided you hit it at all. That's better than simply missing entirely. It's not always going to be amazing damage, since it's (semi-randomly) spread out shot, but something is better than nothing.
  
• Spreads shot. This makes it virtually impossible to hit a specific location on a 'mech beyond about 350 meters- you may hit that component, but you'll also hit everything around it, even on something as weirdly hitboxed as a Crab or Stalker. Further than about 600m, the spread is typically larger than whole 'mechs. You can use this to your advantage by peppering multiple enemies that aren't paying attention with shot, causing several to look around or even cower, but you're not going to be able to expect good damage.
  
• Spreads shot. For whatever reason, this results in one-damage 'pellets' that have no shell drop. So you don't ever have to shoot higher than your target. This is, at best, minor, but not too small to mention.
  
• Has longer range. The LB-10X will continue doing damage at pretty extreme ranges. Unfortunately, with the shot spreading, this is difficult (nigh impossible) to really take advantage of other than by peppering that ridge over there with shot and hoping one of the enemy ducks.
  
• Weighs less and is smaller. If your tonnage and/or slotting is tight, the LB-10X should be considered for coming in a tonne under the standard AC/10 (and occupying one less critical slot). One tonne and one CHS is not always significant, but sometimes it means the difference between fitting properly and being unable to use all your tonnes within the space in your 'mech.
  
• Is much, much cooler. Not talking sunglasses, talking thermally. Two heat per shot is a 33% reduction, which makes it a lot easier to sustain on hot maps or in high-heat situations. Not shutting down (or not taking internal damage from overriding a shutdown) can be huge if it's a significant worry. There are few weapons that are heat-safer for spraying and praying.
  
• Destroys criticals. If you're shooting at a heavy or assault that's got an open component, and you need to stop the weapon there from firing again in order to save your 'mech or your teammate's 'mech (and the damage won't tear off the component), this effect is invaluable. If you don't know how to time your fire or pick your targets for those situations, though, this trait is completely meaningless- it amounts to a random chance of fun bonus if you can't manage your fire with this in mind.
  
• Sounds cool. Not much of a consideration, but it's there. Yeah, this is frivolous. Still..... BLAT.
  
• IS A SECONDARY WEAPON. The majority of people who hate the LB-10X and claim it's useless are trying to use it like a main cannon- like the AC/10. It is not a main cannon. It is not meant to be, as a single instance, a primary damage source. If your weapons loadout revolves around your ballistic choice, this is not the right cannon unless you can mount at least two of them. If you can mount multiples, then make yourself swift and brawl like a madman. If you cannot mount multiples, then this is a secondary weapon and you need to mount something that tears open holes first. It goes well with things like: PPCs, large non-LB-X autocannon, Large Pulse Lasers, large numbers of Medium Pulse Lasers, and large batches of Artemis SRMs. It goes less well but can be managed with: ER and standard Large Lasers, large numbers of Medium Lasers, and AC/5s or UAC/5s. Mostly, though, the point is- either tear open holes first, or be ready to wait on using it until either there's no point holding onto your ammo or something has already had holes torn open on it.
  
• Is capable of exceptions. I have a Blackjack that mounts an LB-10X and four Medium Lasers and I've beaten up some amazing things with it (including assault 'mechs). I have a mixed-loadout Cataphract that is quite frankly insane by current standards, but I use an LB-X in it and it works wonders. Generally speaking, though, you don't want the LB-10X to be half or more of your weapons load in tonnage or damage dealt per volley. If it is, consider replacing it with an AC/10, a UAC/5, or an AC/5 (space and options for additional secondary weapons determining if an AC/10 is even feasible).

The AC/10:

• Fires a single shell. If you hit with any of it, you hit with all of it. If you can actually reliably hit lights with it, then this can actually be better- but if you have any issues at all (say, a 'mech that cannot track fast enough, or just not being that great withyour timing) it will be a worse weapon for fighting light 'mechs.
  
• Fires a single shell. If you hit with it, you hit the same location with all of it. This is really important when you're attacking something that has armor remaining on most or all of its locations. Tearing open a damaged component, excepting an arm with no equipment in it, is almost always more valuable than scraping the paint on every single component.
  
• Fires a single shell. As long as you can account for shell drop and travel time, it never gets harder to damage a target.
  
• Fires a single shell. If you use shell drop properly, you can shoot over shallow hills with it. This is a trait common to all non-LB-X autocannon. I've clanged people I can't actually see in the head/torso with an AC/20, AC/10, and AC/5 before, and the feeling of doing this properly with any autocannon is very, very pleasing. It's hard to do (I still only rarely pull it off and I've been playing for years), but if you can, you giggle a little when you do.

You will note there are less bullet points for the AC/10. This does not mean the list is less important.

As concerns your situation, it depends on the build of your Atlas, your range of engagement, and when you're getting rattled.

• Screen shake doesn't actually move your reticle. If you were on target before and the thing you were shooting at hasn't moved relative to your 'mech's direction/aim, then you can go on shooting anyway and still be on target. If you can manage this, then screen shake is no reason to alter anything about what you're doing. This is optimal, but not always possible.
  
• The Atlas' ballistic mount is low on its right torso. This is not a good mount for hunting lights, both because it's less flexible than an arm mount (lateral tracking) and because the Atlas' torso does not pitch well for fighting lights at close range. If you're worried about fast, jumpy light 'mechs with your Atlas, you need to stay closer to your teammates rather than try an LB-X.
  
• If your other weapon mounts don't contain enough firepower compared to the right torso, the LB-X is not the right weapon, because it is not a main weapon. On something the Atlas' size, this should not be an issue (unless you're doing an over/under shotgun in that torso), but if you're using alongside, say, LRMs and four medium lasers, you don't want an LB-X.
  
• If you're mostly fighting other heavies and assaults, the LB10-X is more favorable. Especially if you fight primarily assaults. Assault 'mech components tend to be the size of entire light 'mechs, so the spread becomes less of an issue.
  
• If you're mostly fighting in the 0-300m envelope, you can compensate for the spread well enough that you're not going to miss the location you want when you can aim at a component. Outside that range, the LB-10X is less favorable, so take into account the range at which you fight. If you're usually going at it from longer ranges, you're better off with a UAC/5 or an AC/10, depending on precise range and whether you stare at a target or twist and shout shoot. If your other weaponry is long-ranged, you can worry less about this, but it's still something to take into consideration.
  
• If you're getting rattled at the start of the fight, or when you're facing heavies/assaults with fresh or nearly fresh armor, the LB-10X is not going to help (especially beyond about 300m), because the spread will smear damage across targets and not tear open paths to internal equipment.
  
• If your other weapons can't reliably tear holes for you to exploit with the LB-10X, it's going to be less optimal. Equipped with long-burn lasers and large LRM racks? This is a bad combination unless your aim's pretty good with those lasers, and even then it's suboptimal. Equipped with either LRM-5s/PPC, LRM-5s/LL, or SRM(Artemis)s/LPL? Much easier to make work.

So.... you didn't give enough info to say for sure on your specific 'mech, but hopefully this mini-guide helps.

Ciao!

-QKD-CR0

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 28 January 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Any situation is good.
Some like having two LB 10s. Myself, I enjoy combining the LB 10 with an AC/5. Their round travel times are similar, it gives an accurate punch down the center, their firing times don't overlap so I can keep delivering a "Pa-pow! Bang! Pow! Bang! Pow-ang! Bang! Pow! Bang! Pow! Pa-pow!" etc. Really gets an enemy shake going and allows you to make mincemeat of their armor quickly especially up close.

LBs as people say are extra effective after armor is gone. No denying this. But there's nothing wrong with delivering a pounding of it during combat. It keeps people from knowing where you are aiming, which confuses them in what to protect. It also leaves no openings for a quick return fire and twist to protect; there's just not enough time!

Some examples using the LBX and AC/5 (or AC/2) combination.



This is an AC/2 and LBX combination. Supplemented with streaks and 3 ML on a Highlander. I recommend going with AC/5 whenever possible alongside an LBX, but if you can't fit it on mechs other than the Atlas, this'll work well too.

I may try similar on my Black Widow, never considered pairing the LBX with AC2.