161 replies to this topic

[Onimusha shin]

Well, this post aims to clear the murk about what is OP (overpowered) and what is not. For links to what I mentioned in the topic, ie TheSilken's IS vs Clan 8v8 event, you may refer to the Reddit thread with YouTube link, or TheSilken's MWO thread. Reddit thread with 2 Twitch streams here too.

TL;DR - If you're not interested in looking at numbers, you won't be bothered about internal weapon class balance. But if you are keen on laser balance, take the time to glance through the common lasers you use.
The numbers have been simplified for easy reading. Basically, comparing the Clan weapons to IS equivalents, and judging the advantage/disadvantage of the Clan weapon over the IS weapon compared.
The point is: for some weapons at maxed IS laser quirks (using the QKD-4G as reference), some Clan lasers are at a total disadvantage. Clan lasers are now good for poking while quirked IS lasers are good for poking AND brawling.

But before I begin, I'd like to shamelessly plug my thoughts penned down at the PTS sub-forums as follows:

My Ideal MWO State (Part 1 of 2)
My Ideal MWO State (Part 2 of 2)

Actually, there's probably more I'd like to pen down but they took forever to come out. I hope peeps can pop over and take part in the polls regardless. Especially for Part 2.

Now, let's start with the topic proper. I'll probably do this in a number of posts to possibly make things easier to discuss.

First off, IS vs Clans Total HP Comparison (accurate as at 26 Jan 2016), numbers derived from Smurfy's and Snafet's MWO Quirks List.



As can be seen from the compiled data above, the % differences in total HP (Armor+Quirked Structure) between IS and Clan is shown in the centre column.

Things to note are, those chassis with their total HP highlighted in yellow, are IS chassis that need more HP via quirks in comparison to both their counterparts in IS weight class or Clan side.

Those with red bolded text are serious offenders which are likely overquirked. Blackjacks are obvious offenders. Those chassis with green highlighted total HP are quite safe, IMO to leave untouched. Red highlight with yellow fonts are chassis with debatably high quirked HP.

I used a few criteria to judge them, namely, meta build ranges, XL requirements and their builds' alphas/DPS. Feel free to discuss them.

Next, I'm moving on to Laser balances, first by the Large Laser groups.

Edited by Onimusha shin, 26 January 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

It didnt help matters that the clans were using primarily C-ERLLs, which are the worst Clan weapon in the game (Barring AC2s, Flamers, MGs and LRMs)

Id like to see it re-done with the Clans using C-LPLs in place of those. I think they would still lose, but it would be closer.

[Onimusha shin]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 January 2016 - 01:23 AM, said:

It didnt help matters that the clans were using primarily C-ERLLs, which are the worst Clan weapon in the game (Barring AC2s, Flamers, MGs and LRMs)

Id like to see it re-done with the Clans using C-LPLs in place of those. I think they would still lose, but it would be closer.

You'd be surprised. Large Laser group comparison coming up.

[Onimusha shin]

Now, lets start with IS laser quirks summary. Then move on to Unquirked Large (Pulse) Lasers comparisons.

I collated these from Snafet's, took the LEAST quirks by taking the lowest quirk values in each column, took the WORST quirks by taking the mech chassis with the highest quirks (highlighted in orange).

I then used the Heavy weight class LEAST & WORST quirks combos to judge how balanced the IS and Clan lasers are.


The quirks themselves are probably controversial and I'm looking at them apart from the structure quirks, ie. total HP comparison table above.

[Widowmaker1981]

Onimusha shin, on 26 January 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

You'd be surprised. Large Laser group comparison coming up.

I won't be surprised, the C-ERLL is AWFUL.

Worst dmg/heat of any laser in the game.
1.5 second duration ENSURES taking return fire every time you shoot, unless you waste half the beam into cover (and thus make the dmg/heat stat WORSE)

With durations, you can take approx. 0.5 seconds off for human reaction/decision making time. So a 0.6s laser (IS-LPL) is over by the time someone has reacted and decided what course of action to take - effectively FLD for defence purposes. a 1 second laser gives ~0.5s to react (either follow beam to source and fire or defensive twist, depending on if you're taking the fire or not).. thats only barely enough, if you're really fast you might get some PPFLD weapon to hit in return. A 1.5 second weapon like the C-ERLL allows a whole second for reaction return fire, which is ages, and enough time for someone to see the beam start, aim, and fire an entire LPL burst (or most of a duration quirked IS-ERLL) into you before your beam is done. Its unusable.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 02:00 AM.

[Onimusha shin]

Large (Pulse) Laser comparisons
To begin with, I'll have to explain the tables below. I might have used some confusing terminology so this should set the record straight.
Clan HeatCap - refers to 2x the weapon stated
Each HeatCap - refers to 2x the weapon stated for Clans, 3x the weapon stated for IS
% differences - derived from the % advantage/disadvantage over the IS weapon compared below, ie. damage difference divided by IS weapon damage sta
Clan Superiority % - refers to the sum total of the % differences, excluding the set variables such as RANGE, DURATION.
DPS, DPH, DPS/T, HPS are all derivatives (calculated from the preceding stats, so they are listed only for reference and discussion)

So basically, the comparison tables below are comparing Clan Superiority % of the following conditions:
2xClan and 2xIS weapons, at IS optimal range and at Clan optimal range
(this is a common scenario in most public or CW games)
2xClan and 3xIS weapons, at IS optimal range and at Clan optimal range, and at lowest burn duration between the 2 weapons compared
(this is more common in Heavy and Assault mechs facing off, and in competitive matches)

Clan erLL vs IS erLL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erLL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
This I decided to hide because nobody in competitive scene takes the least quirked meta mechs into battle when their opponent will likely take the most quirked ones to face them.

Spoiler

Clan erLL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


So, barring any severe discrepancies, we can say that in general, Clan erLLs are only marginally better than the highest quirked IS erLLs.

[El Bandito]

Seems the Clanners are still in CW2 mentality; since they think CERLLs are the be-all-end-all weapon of choice.

[Onimusha shin]

Clan LPL vs IS erLL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan LPL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan LPL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Numbers don't lie. The above is why the Clan teams in TheSilken's event matches didn't bother to bring C-LPLs.

[Onimusha shin]

What about C-LPLs vs IS LPLs? Or C-erLLs vs IS LPLs?

Well, the latter is obviously a foregone conclusion, given that C-erLLs are SLIGHTLY better than IS erLLs, especially at range. Why would the IS team even bring LPLs if they would bring the closest possible weapon to counter C-erLLs?

Clan LPL vs IS LPL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan LPL vs IS LPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan LPL vs IS LPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Again, at the maxed end of IS quirks, C-LPL only retains its % superiority by virtue of spare tonnage (which some would argue is useful for mounting other weapons). However, with an apples vs quirked apples comparison, the C-LPL only ekes out a 14% advantage over its quirked IS counterpart.

[Widowmaker1981]

Onimusha shin, on 26 January 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Clan LPL vs IS erLL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan LPL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan LPL vs IS erLL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Numbers don't lie. The above is why the Clan teams in TheSilken's event matches didn't bother to bring C-LPLs.

You are simply not understanding the duration issue. Its a vastly bigger thing than you give it credit for, as i explained above. Its NOT just the issue of holding the beam on target, that is trivial. Its the exposure time and thus the return fire.

[Onimusha shin]

For some sense of completeness, I included the below comparison.

Clan erLL vs IS LL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erLL vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan erLL vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


There you go, a 28% superiority, by virtue of tonnage and range.

Placeholder for C-LPL vs IS LL if requested. Slipped my mind to do this.



Clan LPL vs IS LL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan LPL vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan LPL vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)

Edited by Onimusha shin, 26 January 2016 - 02:19 AM.

[Appogee]

Clan balance vs IS isn't only a matter of HP or weapon comparisons. Clans continue to benefit from:

• surviving when a side torso is gone
  
• lighter weapons and equipment across the board
  
• ability to min/max large numbers of hardpoints via omnipods,
  
• lower slot requirements
  
• longer weapon ranges across the board except vs some very specific quirked IS variants and loadouts
  
• uniform movement speeds in their heavies, enabling easier deathballing
  
• multiple targeting computers at lower weight, enhancing critting chances, target data and zoom
  
• fewer slots for DHS
  
• CASE on every component of every Mech
  
• the ability to boat large numbers of Streaks against IS Lights - IS has no equivalent
  
• UACs >5, creating the opportunity to significant increase damage beyond standard DPS

IS have some advantages, too... some specific variants are quirked, generally less locked structure, flexibility in engine rating, flexibility in ES/FF upgrades, slightly better heat dissipation, etc..






Point is: there's a lot of Mech factors that may contribute to a victory or loss, and that's before you take into account other factors like individual player skill, the effectiveness of the competing commanders, map spawn point biases, etc.

Edited by Appogee, 26 January 2016 - 09:08 AM.

[Red Shrike]

I like these tables. Too bad I can't make heads or tails of it.

[Onimusha shin]

Moving on the smaller lasers.

Clan erML vs IS LL

Spoiler

Clan erML vs IS LL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erML vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan erML vs IS LL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Well, obviously still a problem that was inherited by BattleTech TT values. But if you let your dominantly IS LL build get closed in by a Clan erML boat, woe to you.

Clan erML vs IS ML

Spoiler

Clan erML vs IS ML (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erML vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)
Hidden because, see reason in the erLL vs erLL comparison above

Spoiler

Clan erML vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Yep, you're not mistaking it. The maxed quirked IS ML can almost be as good as the C-erML. Due to a helluva shorter burn duration, and lower heat. Distance disparity is only 80m, EASILY closed in this game.

[DovisKhan]

^ You know why those tables are BS?


Because that's isolated data of only damage comparison vs heat


In reality, lets take a few stock (stock builds, because you can't accuse me of being biased that way) Assault mechs, one IS and one Clan


Both at ~840 total hp so you'd see what you get with the same tankiness (after quirks applied)


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=149&l=stock

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=288&l=stock



Clan mech gets ~2x more damage, JJ, Clan Masc (greater move speed), and all that only for the energy efficiency, but that's hardly relevant since with greater mobility comes greater positioning and in poke and hide meta overheating isn't that much of a problem when you have 2x the burst





What these threads look like is just salty Clan players having to deal with the fact they have no easy mode to stomp the IS.



PS: Comparing Pulse laser with ER Large Lasers, seriously?


If you're going that far out of your way to impose the illusion of IS superiority, lets be opjective:


Compare IS pulse lasers with Clan UAC20s, they have the ~same weight, range, but Clan UAC20s have way more damage and have less heat.


But that doesn't fir yoyr agenda so well now does it.

Edited by DovisKhan, 26 January 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[Onimusha shin]

Next up are MPLs.

Clan MPL vs IS ML

Spoiler

Clan MPL vs IS ML (UNQUIRKED)


Clan MPL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan MPL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Well, at least I know a C-MPL is roughly equal to a maxed quirked IS ML.

Clan MPL vs IS MPL

Spoiler

Clan MPL vs IS MPL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan MPL vs IS MPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan MPL vs IS MPL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Well darn, C-MPLs run bloody hot. Then again, we sorta knew that.

[DovisKhan]

Appogee, on 26 January 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

Narrow comparisons aren't helpful, and they certainly don't explain the outcome of any battle..

Clan superiority balance vs IS isn't only a matter of HP or weapon comparisons. Clans continue to benefit from:

• surviving when a side torso is gone
  
• lighter weapons and equipment across the board
  
• ability to min/max large numbers of hardpoints via omnipods,
  
• lower slot requirements
  
• longer weapon ranges across the board except vs some very specific quirked IS variants and loadouts
  
• uniform movement speeds in their heavies, enabling easier deathballing
  
• multiple targeting computers at lower weight, enhancing critting chances, target data and zoom
  
• fewer slots for DHS
  
• CASE on every component of every Mech
  
• the ability to boat large numbers of Streaks against IS Lights - IS has not equivalent
  
• UACs >5, creating the opportunity to significant increase damage beyond standard DPS

IS have some advantages, too... some specific variants are quirked, generally less locked structure, flexibility in engine rating, flexibility in ES/FF upgrades, slightly better heat dissipation, etc..




Point is: you can't attribute an IS team's victory over a Clan team to something as narrow as weapon and hitpoint comparisons.

And that's before you take into account other factors like individual player skill, the effectiveness of the competing commanders, map spawn point biases, etc.

^ Excellent point, but it doesn't fit his agenda, so I doubt you will get a coherent answer

[Onimusha shin]

Now for the small laser groups.

Clan SPL vs IS ML

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS ML (UNQUIRKED)


Clan SPL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan SPL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


Clans would need to close in 165m in order to gain the edge on an IS ML boat. Fair enough. But better to let IS mechs close in and pounce on them unawares. Shorter burns for Clans, which reduces their facetime exposure, a much needed aid in this age of overquirked IS mech structures.

Clan erSL vs IS ML

Spoiler

Clan erSL vs IS ML (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erSL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan erSL vs IS ML (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


This looks decent on paper. Facetime for C-erSL is higher though, but at least closing in 127m isn't as bad.

Clan erSL vs IS SL

Spoiler

Clan erSL vs IS SL (UNQUIRKED)


Clan erSL vs IS SL (Minimal Quirks using Heavy class LEAST quirks)

Spoiler

Clan erSL vs IS SL (Maxed Quirks using Heavy class WORST quirks)


The maxed quirked IS SL is like a C-SPL. Just wow. Glad IS mechs don't usually boat SPLs. Then again, they have their quirked out MLs.

[DerMaulwurf]

Onimusha shin, on 26 January 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

[...]

Numbers don't lie. The above is why the Clan teams in TheSilken's event matches didn't bother to bring C-LPLs.

Sorry, but numbers lie all the time. Especially if you pick a variety of extremely specific scenarios and exclude all other variables, just like you are doing now.

TheSilken's thread is actually much better, especially since he switched the teams between the the techs. But where I stand the immediate conclusion is that the requirkening went too far and needs to be scaled back, not that clan tech is somehow fundamentally flawed.

[kesmai]

After a glimpse with my half blind eye the outcome of those matches may also be a matter of teamwork, skill And coordination. Could you do a chart for that?