38 replies to this topic

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

First of all, let me say this is an excellent decision. Having shorter burn time erll that are longer range than clam erll was just wrong. Comp play was affected by larger units abusing the erll meta for IS.

However, there also needs to be changes before this goes live.

All IS mechs affected by this change need the range quirk they lost to be turned into a weapon specific range quirk for whichever weapon the quirks should be based on that are not erll.

Example : Black Knight. Loses 10% energy range. Gains : 10% ml range, 10% mpl range, 10% LL range, 10% PPC range.

Please Russ make this happen so that way clan vs IS balance stays in the sweet spot where its at. There is no reason to reduce the shorter range IS weapons more than they already are compared to clan erml/lpl.

Thanks!

Edited by Alwrath, 30 January 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[FupDup]

My thoughts:

Bumping it down on a few of the top gundams would have been mostly fine, the real problem is that they're taking an across-the-broad global approach with it. Most of the gundams with range quirks aren't good enough to be causing issues.

It's also sad to see every laser except the ERLL taking the hit just because of the ERLL...I would rather see mechs with big range quirks get a small negative range quirk for the ERLL specifically at the same time.

For instance, a mech with +20% energy range might get -10% ERLL range, which works out to just +10% ERLL range while letting every other laser get +20% as normal.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

FupDup, on 30 January 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

My thoughts:

Bumping it down on a few of the top gundams would have been mostly fine, the real problem is that they're taking an across-the-broad global approach with it. Most of the gundams with range quirks aren't good enough to be causing issues.

It's also sad to see every laser except the ERLL taking the hit just because of the ERLL...I would rather see mechs with big range quirks get a small negative range quirk for the ERLL specifically at the same time.

For instance, a mech with +20% energy range might get -10% ERLL range, which works out to just +10% ERLL range while letting every other laser get +20% as normal.

An excellent idea. I didnt even think of that. The only problem I forsee with that is people hate seeing negative quirks on there gundams lol.

[jss78]

FupDup, on 30 January 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

My thoughts:

Bumping it down on a few of the top gundams would have been mostly fine, the real problem is that they're taking an across-the-broad global approach with it. Most of the gundams with range quirks aren't good enough to be causing issues.

It's also sad to see every laser except the ERLL taking the hit just because of the ERLL...I would rather see mechs with big range quirks get a small negative range quirk for the ERLL specifically at the same time.

For instance, a mech with +20% energy range might get -10% ERLL range, which works out to just +10% ERLL range while letting every other laser get +20% as normal.

Someone who does the Twitter thing send this to Russ? This is a great idea.

I agree the 900+ m range ERLL's have to go (and I say this as a CDA/BJ/PNT player affected by this), but this approach would avoid the unnecessary nerfing of stuff like Locusts and ML Cicadas.

[FupDup]

Another idea, this time from Quicksilver, would be to use additive quirks for range (and perhaps other things) instead of just multiplicative (aka percentages).

Basically, the problem with multiplicative buffs is that they tend to give the highest benefit to stats that are already high to begin with. Stats that are very low get very little help from it. For example, +10% ballistic cooldown is great for a Gauss or AC/20, but much tinier for an AC/2. But let's compare that to an additive "raw value" cooldown quirk. Make it, I dunno, 0.1 seconds or so. Shaving off 0.1 from an AC/20 would be practically nothing, but for an AC/2 that would be a much stronger buff.


As an entirely arbitrary example, let's say that a crappy mech with +20% or higher energy range instead got that replaced with +100m energy range. This is an absolute number, meaning that it would add on +100 range to any weapon type afflicted. For example, the ERLL would get boosted up to 775 meters from 675m. The regular LL would go from 450m to 550m. The Small Laser would gain a titanic 235m range compared to its default 135m. ML goes from 270m to 370m. Etc.

Additive buffs have the effect of giving the most benefit to the weapons/stats with the lowest/weakest values, while giving a proportionally lower value to weapons/stats/items with default high values. Since the low-value items tend to be poopy for the most part, this would probably cause fewer balancing issues than big percentage-based buffs.

--------------------------

Here is a more clear breakdown of how percentage/multiplicative quirks benefit the rich more than the poor. I'm going to use +30% energy range as the case study.

Small Laser: 135m --> 176m --> buff of 41m
Small Pulse Laser: 110m --> 143m --> buff of 33m

Medium Laser: 270m --> 351m --> buff of 81m
Medium Pulse Laser: 220m --> 286m --> buff of 66m

Large Laser: 450m --> 585m --> buff of 135m
Large Pulse Laser: 365m --> 475m --> buff of 110m

ER Large Laser: 675m --> 878m --> buff of 203m


TL;DR: Percentage based buffs make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Edited by FupDup, 30 January 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[Bud Crue]

So, based on the above, it would seem we have come full circle with quirks.

When quirks were introduced some people howled about how stupid "weapon specific quirks" were. So they replaced those with "general class" (energy, ballistic, etc.) quirks for the most part. Now the solution to a perceived problem with general quirks (because ERLL are OP on two maps!!) is to make weapons specific quirks...again. Sounds like a plan.

I for one never had an issue with weapon specific quirks...I like the character, but it doesn't matter what PGI does (including nothing) the vocal minority will SCREAM in outrage no matter what they do (as evidence see numerous threads about Black Jack being OP therefor ALL IS mechs are OP and that Clans are therefore unplayable).

Good luck PGI, good luck.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

(because ERLL are OP on two maps!!)

That is incorrect, they are op on every map. Good players know spots on every map where you can get more range and abuse the 1000m erll.

[Hawk_eye]

Might wanna take a look here:

http://mwomercs.com/...e__pid__4986788

[sycocys]

Or if you are just worried about erLL - just reduce the range of erLL.

[meteorol]

FupDup, on 30 January 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

My thoughts:

Bumping it down on a few of the top gundams would have been mostly fine, the real problem is that they're taking an across-the-broad global approach with it. Most of the gundams with range quirks aren't good enough to be causing issues.

It's also sad to see every laser except the ERLL taking the hit just because of the ERLL...I would rather see mechs with big range quirks get a small negative range quirk for the ERLL specifically at the same time.

For instance, a mech with +20% energy range might get -10% ERLL range, which works out to just +10% ERLL range while letting every other laser get +20% as normal.

Suggested that in another thread aswell. But that along with some minor changes to the massively quirked mechs (like the Quirkdraw getting like 15% to every other energy quirk aswell) would be a quick and easy fix for the ER LL issue.

Which means PGI can't do it. They will have to slap a knee-jerk blanket nerf on everything, because that's the way PGI balances stuff since like... day one.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 30 January 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Or if you are just worried about erLL - just reduce the range of erLL.

The problem with nerfing the base stats is that it makes the weapon kinda mediocre for mechs that don't have the corresponding range quirks.

[Bud Crue]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

That is incorrect, they are op on every map. Good players know spots on every map where you can get more range and abuse the 1000m erll.

Alwrath,

Maybe that actually happens at T1. I just don't see that being an issue on most maps (at least down in the T3 and lower underhive, where it is my understanding that the vast majority of players are.

Serious question: so you have one of those spots where you "get more range", do other players really let you sit there and "abuse" that range for more than an alpha or two? Does this "abuse" regularly determine the outcome of the match? If not I don't see ERLL "abuse" being any more of an issue than say LRM over use on Hoth.

What is comes down to for me, is that I keep hearing about the OP ERLL (specifically on Black Knights of all chassis...why not Locusts with their 50% buff?) but I have NEVER seen anyone snipping with them and turn the tied of a battle. In fact I can't recall ANY match where someone has been sniping at extreme range and been effective at all in really determining the outcome of the battle. But because I keep reading about it, it makes me wonder if this is because it is only occurring at higher Tiers.

[Chados]

Yes, a 5% LL specific range quirk added to the Jester that stacks with the 10% global range quirk would be just the thing to return it to the status quo ante the December quirk changes. I'd be okay with that.

[Deathlike]

I feel like Paul is window dressing a problem with the wrong solution. Sure, ERLL is crazy when you give it range buffs, but even a simple "Non-ER Laser Range" change from "Laser Range" would pretty much solve most of the problems by themselves.

Then again, it's easier to complicate things with the Dartboard of Balance™.

[MauttyKoray]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

First of all, let me say this is an excellent decision. Having shorter burn time erll that are longer range than clam erll was just wrong. Comp play was affected by larger units abusing the erll meta for IS.

However, there also needs to be changes before this goes live.

All IS mechs affected by this change need the range quirk they lost to be turned into a weapon specific range quirk for whichever weapon the quirks should be based on that are not erll.

Example : Black Knight. Loses 10% energy range. Gains : 10% ml range, 10% mpl range, 10% LL range, 10% PPC range.

Please Russ make this happen so that way clan vs IS balance stays in the sweet spot where its at. There is no reason to reduce the shorter range IS weapons more than they already are compared to clan erml/lpl.

Thanks!

They stated that the blanket nerf will require them to make a pass over the mechs affected. Just like with the scaling, those mechs will also require a pass to re-balance them as things like scale affect their gameplay.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

I feel like Paul is window dressing a problem with the wrong solution. Sure, ERLL is crazy when you give it range buffs, but even a simple "Non-ER Laser Range" change from "Laser Range" would pretty much solve most of the problems by themselves.

Then again, it's easier to complicate things with the Dartboard of Balance™.

Even the standard LLs were getting a fairly crazy range on certain mechs combined with the range module.

[Deathlike]

MauttyKoray, on 30 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Even the standard LLs were getting a fairly crazy range on certain mechs combined with the range module.

You know, you can also relegate the buff to the Medium Laser (range) and below. It's not Lostech unless you make it as such.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I'd argue that they should rip out those range bonuses, all the generics and many specific too, but replace them with duration and/or heat reductions. I'm a proponent of the range quirk limits not because I feel the IS is overpowered (its not) but because I view it as homogenization of Clan and IS tech.

IS should be more heat efficient, able to tank more damage, but shorter ranged.

Flavor.

Just my two bits.

[MechWarrior5152251]

To Russ your tears are delicious. He knows you will have to buy new and better mechs with new and improved power creep....

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 30 January 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

I'd argue that they should rip out those range bonuses, all the generics and many specific too, but replace them with duration and/or heat reductions. I'm a proponent of the range quirk limits not because I feel the IS is overpowered (its not) but because I view it as homogenization of Clan and IS tech.

IS should be more heat efficient, able to tank more damage, but shorter ranged.

Flavor.

Just my two bits.

Duration and heat reductions are just as powerful (if not more powerful), depending on the weapon in question.

The Lolcust-1V has a 50% duration reduction.. for the variant that has 1 energy hardpoint. Unless MGs stop sucking, the sole laser is the focal point of its firepower. I'm not saying the 1V is OP, but giving incredible duration quirks makes already good weapons better (the ERLL will obviously benefit, but the LPL is that much more potent).

Any crazy mass heat reductions allow the increased spammability of a weapon. It doesn't matter whether the weapon is a PPC or not.. it simply increases its use. The PPC era had 8 heat PPCs and 12 heat ERPPCs... which is totally insane (and we had 7.5 heat ERPPCs through quirks once upon a time).

So, there is a point where some quirks have diminishing returns, but then again, there are plenty of good weapons that gain a lot more benefits become the "quirked weapon" of choice.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

You know, you can also relegate the buff to the Medium Laser (range) and below. It's not Lostech unless you make it as such.

Yea, category specific quirks aren't the problem. It was the blanket quirks making some lasers okay while giving an unwanted superiority to ranges like the ERLL and LL in addition to the module bonus. Blanket quirks work alright most of the time but here and there certain mechs need to be handled individually. Even if it means giving them a larger number of quirks, something like ML range and SL range would be acceptable in place of simply 'laser range' or 'energy range' for balance purposes.

Personally I dislike giving so many mechs all these range boosts, firing rate, etc quirks because it breaks down the uniformity of the weapons systems across the game and causes each mech to play differently with various weapons. Such as a ton of mechs having varied PPC or AC velocities, weapons based on leading a target, distance to target, and travel time. Needing to remember different lead times for 4 different mechs can be very hard to deal with and mental energy consuming.

But, that's not for me to decide, so we'll see how the devs handle the current state of the game. Which to be fair is far better than the post-clan release and fairly close to the pre-clan state.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 30 January 2016 - 01:59 PM.