38 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

If so many IS mechs require 10% or greater range quirks to have small, medium, or non-ER large class lasers be viable, then why not just simply...

IMPROVE
THE
FREAKING
WEAPON
RANGES
THEMSELVES?!

[Deathlike]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

If so many IS mechs require 10% or greater range quirks to have small, medium, or non-ER large class lasers be viable, then why not just simply...

IMPROVE
THE
FREAKING
WEAPON
RANGES
THEMSELVES?!

Balance was decreed Lostech years ages ago by the man who shall not be named.

It is his plan, and so it shall be.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

If so many IS mechs require 10% or greater range quirks to have small, medium, or non-ER large class lasers be viable, then why not just simply...

IMPROVE
THE
FREAKING
WEAPON
RANGES
THEMSELVES?!

Dunno man, or just do:

+20% Energy range

followed by

-20% ER LLAS Range


That's it, that's all it would take to control THE ONE SINGLE OUTLIER WEAPON and not nerf ALL OF THE THINGS.

[Khobai]

bunch of stupid ****ing ideas here.

A better idea is to just balance the weapons properly in the first place. And then you dont need quirks for balance at all.

The problem with quirks is that only certain mechs have them. And the mechs with desirable quirks become the new metamechs. While the mechs with undesirable quirks fall into disuse.

It makes much more sense to balance the game at the base level and have weapons perform consistently regardless of what mech youre using. And only use quirks in extreme cases where two mechs are way too similar or when a mech really needs a buff to put it on par with other mechs.

For example, instead of requiring IS mechs to have 25% range quirks for the IS-LPL to compete with the C-LPL, JUST LOWER THE RANGE OF THE C-LPL by 25%.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[DeathWaffle]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

First of all, let me say this is an excellent decision. Having shorter burn time erll that are longer range than clam erll was just wrong. Comp play was affected by larger units abusing the erll meta for IS.

However, there also needs to be changes before this goes live.

All IS mechs affected by this change need the range quirk they lost to be turned into a weapon specific range quirk for whichever weapon the quirks should be based on that are not erll.

Example : Black Knight. Loses 10% energy range. Gains : 10% ml range, 10% mpl range, 10% LL range, 10% PPC range.

Please Russ make this happen so that way clan vs IS balance stays in the sweet spot where its at. There is no reason to reduce the shorter range IS weapons more than they already are compared to clan erml/lpl.

Thanks!

Agreed!

Make it a free choice game with multiple weapon options per mech!
(as initially intended)

NOT limited weapon specific mechs!

Edited by DeathWaffle, 30 January 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

In fact I can't recall ANY match where someone has been sniping at extreme range and been effective at all in really determining the outcome of the battle.

Only the pro's do it. In the solo Q youll see myself, Heim, B33f, etc doing it, along with many more players that are tier 1. Comp drops you peek over your first hill and top units have low settings on so they see through walls and spray you with erll at over 1000m in thier Stalkers/quirked IS mechs. Some will use aimbot as well so its just an exaserbated situation of abuse. You wont see it in tier 3 as much but its out there.

Edited by Alwrath, 30 January 2016 - 03:18 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Khobai, on 30 January 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

bunch of stupid ****ing ideas here.

A better idea is to just balance the weapons properly in the first place. And then you dont need quirks for balance at all.

Every single post from you has been nothing but stupidity. You cant balance clan vs IS with the weapon's as they are from TT. Clan weapons are superior and thats why we have quirks in the first place. With the exception of the overquirked IS erll balance is better than it ever has been since the op clan invasion.

[MauttyKoray]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

Only the pro's do it. In the solo Q youll see myself, Heim, B33f, etc doing it, along with many more players that are tier 1. Comp drops you peek over your first hill and top units have low settings on so they see through walls and spray you with erll at over 1000m in thier Stalkers/quirked IS mechs. Some will use aimbot as well so its just an exaserbated situation of abuse. You wont see it in tier 3 as much but its out there.

Yeah, in lower tiers the quirks are far less noticeable than anywhere. At Tier 3 they begin to pick up, Tier 2 are an edge, and at Tier 1 they're practically required for whatever build uses them.

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

If so many IS mechs require 10% or greater range quirks to have small, medium, or non-ER large class lasers be viable, then why not just simply...

IMPROVE
THE
FREAKING
WEAPON
RANGES
THEMSELVES?!

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Every single post from you has been nothing but stupidity. You cant balance clan vs IS with the weapon's as they are from TT. Clan weapons are superior and thats why we have quirks in the first place. With the exception of the overquirked IS erll balance is better than it ever has been since the op clan invasion.

Not just that but the majority of IS weapons are 'standard' while the Clans mostly use 'ER' for energy. The problem is that people are wanting non-ER and ER weapons balanced with one another (IS vs Clan), instead of stepping back and looking at the weapon systems as two different beasts that need to be balanced with 'trade-off' and not straight numbers. Think of them like balancing standard and pulse lasers. That's the same sort of situation. Because if you balance IS vs Clan and not standard vs ER, then when IS ER and advanced weaponry comes into play the game will enter a new state of imbalance with severe issues

Edited by MauttyKoray, 30 January 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Hawk819]

I usually run Large Lasers. So no biggie on my part. I welcome this move wholeheartedly,

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Hawk819, on 30 January 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

I usually run Large Lasers. So no biggie on my part. I welcome this move wholeheartedly,

I run LL alot too ) People dont realize how good they are on quirked mechs. Its like a clan erml on steroids, and you can alpha 3 with other weapon systems. Heck one of my favorite Maulers is 6 LL 2 uac5, that thing is a beast. Puts the 6 LL Stalker to shame unless your hill humping.

[Ultimax]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

I run LL alot too ) People dont realize how good they are on quirked mechs. Its like a clan erml on steroids,

I'm sorry, but do you not understand how ridiculous this sounds?


A weapon that weighs FIVE TIMES AS MUCH should in fact be "an ERML on steroids".


And the only reason this is even the case is bacause:

1) IS Energy Quirks
2) CERMLAS nerf

Before that the CERMLAS completely outclassed the LLAS functionally.

[Bud Crue]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

Only the pro's do it. In the solo Q youll see myself, Heim, B33f, etc doing it, along with many more players that are tier 1. Comp drops you peek over your first hill and top units have low settings on so they see through walls and spray you with erll at over 1000m in thier Stalkers/quirked IS mechs. Some will use aimbot as well so its just an exaserbated situation of abuse. You wont see it in tier 3 as much but its out there.

That is pathetic. Really? This is a thing then. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I am.
Lowering your setting to see through walls? That is "skill" for sure.

As to the "IS ERLL is OP" issue, if this is a comp thing, then I am sure PGI will address it, and address it with gusto. After all PGI has made it clear that they want the game to be an esport and to attract "pros".
If this is something that is really just an issue for that 1% of the population, then it will be a priority for sure.

In the meantime, thank you for your answer. I have never felt better about being bad at this game. Knowing that I will never be "good" enough to play at the same level these so called "pros" are at is certainly a pleasant thought.

[Surn]

Leave the erll range alone. You guys are caught up in the argument instead of realizing erll is the only actual advantage inner sphere have.

of course the is would have a feW mechs with superior range, because iS mechs are not multirole like clan tech.


you are comparing a f22 with a a10 warthog.

Edited by MechregSurn, 31 January 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Ultimatum X, on 30 January 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but do you not understand how ridiculous this sounds?


A weapon that weighs FIVE TIMES AS MUCH should in fact be "an ERML on steroids".


And the only reason this is even the case is bacause:

1) IS Energy Quirks
2) CERMLAS nerf

Before that the CERMLAS completely outclassed the LLAS functionally.

Well of course. We are in agreement then.

[Khobai]

Alwrath, on 30 January 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Every single post from you has been nothing but stupidity. You cant balance clan vs IS with the weapon's as they are from TT.

MWO is not TT. The weapons do not and should not use the same stats.

And yes you absolutely can balance Clan vs IS weapons BY CHANGING THEIR STATS. DERPADERP

Quote

Clan weapons are superior and thats why we have quirks in the first place. With the exception of the overquirked IS erll balance is better than it ever has been since the op clan invasion.

Clan weapons CANNOT be superior because PGI is trying to balance IS vs Clan 1:1.

Clan weapons need to be equal but different rather than being outright superior. We should have asymmetrical equality. Clan weapons should typically have higher damage/range but at the cost of longer beam durations/burst fire, longer cooldowns, and higher heat.

By normalizing clan weapons with IS weapons we can then remove all the stupid IS weapon quirks that have ruined the game.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2016 - 05:42 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Khobai, on 30 January 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

MWO is not TT. The weapons do not and should not use the same stats.

And yes you absolutely can balance Clan vs IS weapons BY CHANGING THEIR STATS. DERPADERP



Clan weapons CANNOT be superior because PGI is trying to balance IS vs Clan 1:1.

Clan weapons need to be equal but different rather than being outright superior. We should have asymmetrical equality. Clan weapons should typically have higher damage/range but at the cost of longer beam durations/burst fire, longer cooldowns, and higher heat.

By normalizing clan weapons with IS weapons we can then remove all the stupid IS weapon quirks that have ruined the game.

Biggest problem? People are looking at Clan vs IS solely, which is WRONG.

Things to look at: (example)
-Lasers have 3 versions, Standard (IS), Standard ER (IS), and CLAN ER.
-standard lasers are basically the 'base' building block for the other versions.
-ER lasers trade off heat and burn time for better damage and range.
-CER do the same but are better tech than IS, resulting in a higher trade off.

Thus the Clans weapons are technically 'improved' but they give a higher trade off and are not just entirely better. Though I agree this balance needs to be better tuned and the Maximum range mechanic needs to be reigned in quite a bit. (1000m+ LLs probably shouldn't happen)

Ballistics PPFLD mitigation for Clans have effectively changed them enough to completely nullify any claim that clan ballistics are 'better'. With the boost to their spread between shots they've become a far more useful version than their old, sad selfs but are still nowhere near as effective at damage placement as IS are. LBX are what they are, I can't really say much to that, and Gauss is a whole other monster and I'd rather not say anything about it as I'm tired of the Gauss QQ that occurs constantly in both extremes of it. MGs need love/a real place to call home, giving them reduced damage against armor but higher crits and/or crit damage against structure or something? idk... We'll see if we can put faith in PGI for it with the new Flamer when it patches.

PPCs are an issue too. I don't like the CERPPC damage split for one reason, the IS PPC w/ Capacitor. Its basically a Clan ERPPC but if they also include the damage split then there won't be any reason to take it.

[Surn]

mautty, you are forgetting that clan tech is also smaller and lighter. It may not have better stats if the goal was miniaturization.

[beerandasmoke]

Ultimatum X, on 30 January 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

Dunno man, or just do:

+20% Energy range

followed by

-20% ER LLAS Range


That's it, that's all it would take to control THE ONE SINGLE OUTLIER WEAPON and not nerf ALL OF THE THINGS.

This is what I was thinking as well.

[MauttyKoray]

MechregSurn, on 31 January 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

mautty, you are forgetting that clan tech is also smaller and lighter. It may not have better stats if the goal was miniaturization.

Critical slot restrictions are also fixed to the different sections of Omnimechs as well though. Another thing that seems to be conveniently skipped over by the IS players who constantly bring the smaller/lighter tech up. I understand that's a factor to the weapons, but its being used as a Clan vs IS thing, which the issue is still that people are comparing STANDARD vs ER lasers most of the time. The Clan ERPPC is also mitigated with the damage split, but what will happen when the IS PPC+Capacitor comes out, another damage split, it basically makes it immediately useless as extra heat for mitigated damage makes no sense to any player. The only reason the Clan players deal with it is because its the ONLY ppc they have and the reduced weight/space cost makes up for it some.

Ballistics are in a good place with the improvements to clan AC spread, though LBX on both sides may need a bit of a tweak (higher spread but better crit?). However Clan ACs are basically less useful versions of Clan UACs and have no reason to be taken....at all... (The only reason IS players take standards too, is because they're either quirked or slot restrictions technically...) I think this is actually less a Clan vs IS problem and actually an AC vs UAC problem. We didn't really need the clan and IS separation, we needed mechanics to separate the UAC and AC from each other.

beerandasmoke, on 31 January 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

This is what I was thinking as well.

That's...terrible. Or they could just NOT use Energy Range if the ERLL is being ignored and add +20% SL range, +20 ML Range, maybe +10% LL range? Oh look, better control over specific weapons....

Or, they could even instead do +10% Standard Laser (non-ER) Range and then +10% Small and Medium Range. Super Simple, problem solved.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 31 January 2016 - 02:10 PM.