102 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Metus regem, on 31 January 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yup, what we need , as far as I think, is a lack of convergence. Rather we need a larger targeting circle, all of our shots land in that circle, meaning the further away the target, the more of the target under that circle letting shots land anywhere on that Mech in that circle, or missing it completely if a small Mech, like a Locust. Yet to keep our current all damage to one location, just get closer to the target....

Dynamic CoF. Low heat, <70% max speed, perfect convergence. As speed increases past 70%, as heat increases past 70%, while jumpjetting, CoF gradually increases (in the manner you'd see in pretty much every single FPS ever when sprinting etc). Thus, still requires skill (you can choose to fire with 100% accuracy) or you can choose to push the limits of your mech, running hot, hard and fast. Even if you went to just, say, 5-7 degrees total CoF, you'd spread damage sufficiently in the majority of instances (again, ALWAYS with the option for the firing player to control things and fire accurately if they wish to). It's tight enough that brawlers wouldn't really be impacted, but sniping/rainbow vomiting at range certainly would be.

Everyone wins. Also opens the door to destroyed gyros/actuators causing a small increase in CoF, etc.

Except there'll always be a vocal set of players who figure every shot should always land precisely where the cross hairs pointed, 100% of the time, no matter what's going on. Who right now I bet have twitching fingers waiting to accuse me of just wanting to punish players for being accurate, or whatever other BS... Though note, it's still 100% possible to fire with perfect accuracy under this system; it just creates choices - accuracy, speed, heat - things to think about while fighting.



But.... That's just me.

[Metus regem]

Wintersdark, on 31 January 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Dynamic CoF. Low heat, &lt;70% max speed, perfect convergence. As speed increases past 70%, as heat increases past 70%, while jumpjetting, CoF gradually increases (in the manner you'd see in pretty much every single FPS ever when sprinting etc). Thus, still requires skill (you can choose to fire with 100% accuracy) or you can choose to push the limits of your mech, running hot, hard and fast. Even if you went to just, say, 5-7 degrees total CoF, you'd spread damage sufficiently in the majority of instances (again, ALWAYS with the option for the firing player to control things and fire accurately if they wish to). It's tight enough that brawlers wouldn't really be impacted, but sniping/rainbow vomiting at range certainly would be.

Everyone wins. Also opens the door to destroyed gyros/actuators causing a small increase in CoF, etc.

Except there'll always be a vocal set of players who figure every shot should always land precisely where the cross hairs pointed, 100% of the time, no matter what's going on. Who right now I bet have twitching fingers waiting to accuse me of just wanting to punish players for being accurate, or whatever other BS... Though note, it's still 100% possible to fire with perfect accuracy under this system; it just creates choices - accuracy, speed, heat - things to think about while fighting.



But.... That's just me.

Nothing in the real world has such perfect precision, short of a perfectly tuned lasers... But anything else mounted on a moving platform will have deviation in the shots... So I'm right with you, but I'd pusg the CoF to at 10 degree base, keep the convergance skill, letting it tighten the grouping to 5-7 degrees, with 2 degrees being the best you could get by standing still.

[Wintersdark]

Metus regem, on 31 January 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

Nothing in the real world has such perfect precision, short of a perfectly tuned lasers... But anything else mounted on a moving platform will have deviation in the shots... So I'm right with you, but I'd pusg the CoF to at 10 degree base, keep the convergance skill, letting it tighten the grouping to 5-7 degrees, with 2 degrees being the best you could get by standing still.

Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to make things palatable to the "OMG YOU JUST HATE SKILL" crowd.

[Metus regem]

Wintersdark, on 31 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to make things palatable to the &quot;OMG YOU JUST HATE SKILL&quot; crowd.

Pffft "Skills" crowd....

Real skill is dealing with the randomness of something and still getting consistent results.

[oldradagast]

Metus regem, on 31 January 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Pffft "Skills" crowd....

Real skill is dealing with the randomness of something and still getting consistent results.

Indeed. Let's not forget that the "skills" crowd mostly hides behind laser vomit and Gauss, the two lowest skill weapons in the game. Look - point-click-kill! So much skill with hit-scan weapons that require no lead time or anything else! Lunacy...

[PocketYoda]

TexAce, on 31 January 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Without convergence we can't have balance ever.

But actually we cant have balance ever, because balance woud be boring and boring games die pretty quick.

Yes because Chess hasn't been around for 1400 years and is still played today..

[TexAce]

Samial, on 31 January 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Yes because Chess hasn't been around for 1400 years and is still played today..

Lol always that stupid chess argument.

Chess has no monthly cost of 70k.
Chess has no steam kiddies playing it.
Chess has no people to feed.
Chess has no licensing


Try again.

[BearFlag]

"Balance" is a broad term that can be applied at different levels. I gather we're talking laser boating and pinpoint here...

Sized hard points can be mimicked with what's already in-game. Available slots and weapon size. Decrease the former and increase the latter and watch mechlab chaos ensue.

Various proposals for COF would spread damage but not decrease it. With a 912 meter quirked IS ERL, I'm not usually pinpointing at "optimal" range, but I am hitting for FULL damage.

At close ranges all weapons should be brutal, including lasers. But my 4 ERLL QKD-4G may as well be brawling with anything under 900 meters.

While the problem has many angles, I think the biggest is damage over range. With ballistics, generally, the longer the range the lower the damage either through damage fall off (beyond optimal) or through caliber drop off for long ranges (AC2). Lasers turn this upside down. The biggest lasers with the most damage have the greatest range with FULL damage out to "optimal" range. Of course, we can't make small lasers long range and large lasers short range, so something else is needed.

IMO, the first step in a solution is ditching "optimal range" which is science-nonsensical any way. Damage potential falls linearly from point of origin. So at half (formerly optimal) range, damage is half. The Quickdraw does 18 damage instead of 36 at that long range. Long lasers will still take the long shots (Who's gonna pass up a good shot?), but there's less damage and some incentive to get a little closer. Small and mediums might need a range buff for such a radical change, but I believe this is a good first step.

[PocketYoda]

TexAce, on 31 January 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

Lol always that stupid chess argument.

Chess has no monthly cost of 70k.
Chess has no steam kiddies playing it.
Chess has no people to feed.
Chess has no licensing


Try again.

But chess is balanced.. Part of its appeal is that its exactly balanced and the players are the variable..

What those things have to do with balancing a game is beyond me, none of those things should ever in any way have anything to do with balancing a game...

Once they do its time to walk away from said game imo..

Edited by Samial, 31 January 2016 - 06:27 PM.

[Adiuvo]

oldradagast, on 31 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Indeed. Let's not forget that the "skills" crowd mostly hides behind laser vomit and Gauss, the two lowest skill weapons in the game. Look - point-click-kill! So much skill with hit-scan weapons that require no lead time or anything else! Lunacy...

Hey remember when PPC/Ballistic was a thing? So do I!

The same players that were at the top then are the same players at the top now. Your argument is terrible.

[wanderer]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Raven should do backflip from AC20's recoil. If you played MW3 you can remember how whole mech twisted to the right when you fire from tiny ac5 in you right hand.

And yet, Urbies at 30 tons come with it stock.

Should they just spin randomly on their torso rotation ring and come to a stop with little dizzy signs around the cockpit each time they fire?

[Davegt27]

Quote

The problem with MWO is not the mechlab, it is CONVERGENCE

I been seeing you guys wavy this flag for a while but I am at a loss what the heck your talking about

Are you saying you want this or don’t want it?

At 20m are you saying you want some of the weapons to miss?

I think the OP is spot on just like fighter aircraft you cannot carry every weapon on every hard point

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 31 January 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

The problem with MWO is not the mechlab, it is GROUPED WEAPONS.

Fixed that for you.

A single weapon with PPD is not the problem...

Think about it... PPD only becomes an issue when more than one weapon is grouped and is able to in a single shot, project a composite amount of damage.

I argue the implementation of weapon grouping and the ability to fire that group as a composite (versus chainfire) might have been the bigger issue than PPD.

Yeah, I know... folks simply macro'd around it but still.

[wanderer]

Davegt27, on 31 January 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

I been seeing you guys wavy this flag for a while but I am at a loss what the heck your talking about

Are you saying you want this or don’t want it?

At 20m are you saying you want some of the weapons to miss?

I think the OP is spot on just like fighter aircraft you cannot carry every weapon on every hard point

No. People magically think that not wanting perfect convergence = not wanting -any- convergence. Yes, I bloody well want weapons to converge. What I don't want them to do is converge so perfectly that you can, without sensors (heck, beyond the range your sensors will even pick up a target) aim and put your entire arsenal a thousand meters downrange and every single one of them will hit the exact same armor section in the exact same spot.

Having converging weapons doesn't have to mean they converge on the point you had your guns on for a fraction of a second while swinging around so fast you're still seeing motion blur, yet somehow your four AC/5's mounted on two different opposite sides of your 'Mech magically punch a perfect 20-point hole in a shot grouping that would make a Marine gunnery sarge drop to his knees and thank RNGesus for the miracle you performed that day.

Heck, I don't even want cone-of-fire or random hits. I want no-sensor-lock (that's iron sights, kids) shots to have a predictable but wider shot grouping. Locked on? Put that salvo right in the ol' bullseye. Not locked? A predictable convergence towards a long-distance point that means you hit the target, you just don't end up hitting everything right on the crosshair center. Left arm hits to the left, left torso a bit less. Same with the right. Head's a bit high, CT a bit low.

You could simply require sensors to get a paperdoll. Or you could literally give every weapon in the game the lock-on mechanic (and you'd still be able to fire, just not with perfect convergence either way).

Or we can endlessly run weapons through the buff/nerf cycle, ignoring the fact that it often isn't the weapon, it's the fact that we can easily and effortlessly pump all of them into the same spot- and that regardless of how you shuffle weapons, it'll still settle out to "what gives me the best converging combo-blast"?

It's like poptarting, people. The end result was breaking jump jets to "fix" poptarting, rather than fixing what made poptarting possible- accurate mid-air fire on the drop.

[Thorqemada]

Unlimited cusotmization is in the end as tight limited as no customization bcs 1 Setup or at best a very few Setups will come out viable and will restrict the diversity of builds - the difference is the way the restriciton works as one is a restriction by rules and the other a restriction by success.

If you want to have diversity it needs to be planned very carefull and be a mix of rules and freedom sensibly thoughtful accompanied/monitored by the Devs.

MWO diversity in the upper Tiers is restricted by success while the lower Tiers still be an enjoyable playground for Mech-Tinkerers.

Edited by Thorqemada, 31 January 2016 - 10:43 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

DaZur, on 31 January 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

Fixed that for you.

A single weapon with PPD is not the problem...

Think about it... PPD only becomes an issue when more than one weapon is grouped and is able to in a single shot, project a composite amount of damage.

I argue the implementation of weapon grouping and the ability to fire that group as a composite (versus chainfire) might have been the bigger issue than PPD.

Yeah, I know... folks simply macro'd around it but still.

Well, I don't know. I mean, if you group six medium lasers together, that's still a good pile of damage. If you group two large clan pulses with three to four mediums... that's good damage too. If you group three inner sphere large pulses with four medium pulses, that hurts as well. And they all hurt one spot.

Then you look at the lonely AC/20 sitting in a corner with a half-dry tear hanging off its cheek. It's sad. It's sad that it can't fulfill its role anymore.

It wants that twenty points of damage to a single location advantage for all its plump girth that it lugs with it.

And the lasers, they mock it. They laugh at it with their pew pews because they know, deep in their hearts, they get to do it now, and at much longer range, without worry of gravity, wind, velocity or rain. They get to hitscan and laugh for their strength in numbers outweighs the single and once mighty that was lord of the battlefield but is it no more.

That's what is wrong.

That's why convergence needs to go.

Convergence breaks the heavy weapons and screws with the entire fundamental armor system Battletech is built around.

Convergence needs to go.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 31 January 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 31 January 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

Convergence breaks the heavy weapons and screws with the entire fundamental armor system Battletech is built around.

I'm kinda with ya to a point... My inference that that group of 4 mLas that makes that AC/20 weep is the schoolyard bully "because" of the ability to fire those 4 mLas in unison versus (like we had early in CB) ripping off a chain of 5 mLas shots. In essence we're on the same page, I'm just reading right to left.

[SkaerKrow]

While I appreciate the idea, the game already has allowances for weight, critical slots, and hardpoints. If you start "sizing" hardpoints then you might as well just make it so that people can't modify their mechs, since that's the logical conclusion to this line of thinking.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

If the root of all balance problems in MWO is what was in OP's post, then lights and mediums are in big trouble. The heavy/assault ERLL/Gauss/ERPPC meta in that game was so strong that you could go whole days without seeing a single light 'Mech drop with you, even though by the Mercs era they had score multipliers. Same for mediums. Why drive a chassis that can't mount a meta loadout when someone can one-shot your 'Mech from across the map with their 7ERLL Novacat, 2LtGauss/2ERPPC Madcat, or 3Gauss/2ERPPC Daishi? I mean, really. Those silly upstart light drivers. Thinking that they should have a game where they aren't just a stepping stone to bigger, better things. The gall!

Note: The Hellspawn was terrible in MW4. It was among the worst 'Mechs in the game. Why? Because it couldn't carry ERLL, ERPPC, or Gauss. Not being able to carry larger weapons killed the chassis. An overreaction between MW3 and MW4 resulted in every single single-slot weapon being nerfed into uselessness save for the CSSRM4. In the earlier missions of MW4, BK, and Mercs, it was wiser to drive something like the Uziel or Bushwacker, which could carry weapons that were actually worth bringing.


...or we could accept that MWO actually has the best balance of any Mechwarrior title yet, build a bridge, and get over it. All four weight classes are viable, even though it is clearly harder to drive lights and assaults than it is to drive mediums and heavies. Both smaller and larger weapons are viable, instead of "balance" overwhelmingly favoring the largest and punchiest weapons of a given type. There are no weapons that combine PPFLD and hitscan mechanics. People actually have to watch out for so-called "weaker" variants lest their pilot have gotten creative and mounted a powerful weapon in place of the stock hardware.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I get the distinct impression that the people posting them really would like a goodly number of the 'Mechs in the game to be pushovers. Because that's how it went when the balance was different. Hell, with the less restrictive construction rules in MWO we still have 'Mechs that are sad and terrible. How is that a good thing? Who would drive them if they were as bad as OP wants them to be? Why are they even in the game then?

FFS, stop asking for crap like this. What MW4 had wasn't balance. What MW4 had was "get in a heavy or assault with long-range PPFLD and profit, or die fast and be laughed at." Your rose-colored glasses need to be adjusted.

[Superscope]

I thought the root of all balance problems was the lack of a good heat scale.

ie. Solid consequences for heating up.