58 replies to this topic

[brroleg]

Someone in other thread pointed out this problem

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The problem has always far more been being able to put every frickin' gun perfectly and instantly on the exact pixel you want, followed by being able to toss that maximum frontloaded or DPS strike there to render most of the armor on your target meaningless.

I can't count how many times I've seen giant robot donut corpses littering the battlefield with barely a scratch on anything past the LT/RT, if that.

So i got a solution. Right now damage is simply reducing "health bars" on mech body part. Its called "armor" but its not actual armor, its health bars in current damage mechanic.

So to make feel like mech has actual armor we need to divide damage into 2 types: AP and HE.
HE damage will behavior just like casual damage - it will shred armor, reduce it. HE damage should have splash, like currently it has Clan ERPPC(it does 15 damage 10 of which is going to target and 5 divided between 2 adjusted body parts). So if you shooting with 15 HE damage to CT, CT will get only 10 damage to armor and both ST will have 2.5. This will effectively reduce convergence
But AP damage will act something like this:

AP DAMAGE DONT AFFECT ARMOR. Its only checking current armor value to calculate if AP damage can get through it to the internals or not.
For example lets take AC10. If you make it to do AP damage it will do 100% damage right to the internals of the mech if bodypart it is shooting at has 10 or less armor. And then it will scale down damage up to 100 armor, doing zero damage to body part with 100 armor. So bodypart with 50 armor will get 50% damage (5) to the internal structure. I dont know exact values of average internal structure health bars, but AC10 with AP sounds pretty OP to me. Thats why it should not be AP, it should be HE. And with HE it will just shred armor, reduce it, and after armor value will go to 0 only then gun with HE type damage will start damaging internals.
Now what guns should AP damage?
It should be UACs, also they should be able to switch ammo type on the move, like you loading both HE and AP rounds in mech and then in combat switch between them as you need. And you will need it. Cause lets take Clan-UAC-5. Per click It shoots 2 bullets with 2.5 damage each. So with AP type damage it will do zero damage to bodypart with 25 armor. And even most lights has more then 25 armor. So with Clan-UAC-5 you definitly will need to weaken armor with HE damage to put it below 25 to start doing damage with AP rounds.

Then its definitely should be Gauss Rifle, and it should do only AP damage. So with 15 damage, it will do some damage to any mech, cause i think highest armor we have is 100(it will do 5 damage to internals protected with 100 armor), and to stop Gauss from doing AP damage you will need 150. This way Gauss will be pretty lore accurate, as it was most feared weapon on the battlefield.

Also lasers. Yes, they also must be affected by this. So continuous lasers should be HE damage type. And pulse lasers should be AP. So this also will prevent laser boat domination once and for all. Cause if you boat just continuous lasers you will do only HE damage, and you will loose against those who has mixed damage setup. They will weaken your armor with HE low enough to start doing damage to your internals with AP, before you even go to his internals with only your continuous laser boat doing only HE damage. And yes, lasers should not be able to switch type of damage.
Pulse lasers stated some high damage values like 13 for Clan LPL, but its not "1 bullet", its number of "bullets" with far less damage each, just like with Clan-UAC-5. So pulse lasers being AP type damage is not OP.

PPC. Now this is should be unique weapon, doing both AP and HE damage. But mostly AP. Lets say 25% of its damage should be HE and 75% is AP. So if PPC doing 10 damage, only 2.5 of it goes to HE, goes to reducing armor. And 7.5 is AP. So to stop PPC from doing any damage you will need 75 armor. But after first shot it will reduce you armor on 2.5 point, so for next shot you will have only 72.5 armor and PPC will start doing some damage to the internals.

LBX guns. Its just raw HE damage without option to switch.

AC as i said, should all be HE damage, except AC2(mainly cause IS does not have uac-2). AC2 should be strait AP without switching.

Missiles. Strait HE damage.

Also maybe overall Internal structure Health bars should be raised across the board.


PS: Please, guys, read it all, and dont troll. I think i spent more then hour to think and wright it. Dont be rude

Edited by brroleg, 13 February 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[Chados]

I'm Chados, and I approve this message.

[Squirg]

no

[627]

No. This is at the end a BattleTech game and there's no such thing as you describe.

This is not a generic RPG shooter with different kind of magic damage.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Read up a bit on lore and learn how the armor the mechs in game use works.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

http://www.sarna.net.../Armor-Piercing

It doesn't work the way you think in the BT universe. Essentially what it does is allow players to destroy equipment inside a component even if the component still has armor, at the expense of accuracy and ammunition capacity.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Here let me help you understand why that's never gonna fly in a battletech based game.

http://www.sarna.net...hs_%26_Vehicles

To those who aren't going to read it.

Quote

In the BattleTech universe, armor is ablative in nature. This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on.

[brroleg]

Quote

This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on.

This how you can describe real life modern reactive armor on tanks. And still sabot rounds punching through such armor exist.

Edited by brroleg, 31 January 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

This how you can describe real life modern reactive armor on tanks. And still sabot rounds punching through such armor exist.

[MechWarrior5152251]

When does Hardened Armor appear in the timeline?

[brroleg]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 31 January 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Im applying game-play logic. Dividing damage into AP and HE will make gameplay more deep and interesting.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Im applying game-play logic. Dividing damage into AP and HE will make gameplay more deep and interesting.

Actually no, it won't... you'll see people using AP rounds en-masse to 3hit crit the engine's of mechs, which will lower TTK even more.

Is that actually what you want? Faster deaths? Because this is how we get faster TTK, and that's the last damned thing this game needs right now.

[Mcgral18]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 31 January 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Actually no, it won't... you'll see people using AP rounds en-masse to 3hit crit the engine's of mechs, which will lower TTK even more.

Is that actually what you want? Faster deaths? Because this is how we get faster TTK, and that's the last damned thing this game needs right now.

Well, actually, the 3 engine Crit rule doesn't exist in MWO.

Death is related to Side Torso loss (attribute is specifically called="sidesToDie")

It would however, blow Goose Waffles up without issue.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Mcgral18, on 31 January 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Well, actually, the 3 engine Crit rule doesn't exist in MWO.

Death is related to Side Torso loss (attribute is specifically called="sidesToDie")

It would however, blow Goose Waffles up without issue.

In regards to IS XL's yes.

BECAUSE THERE ARE 3 CRITICAL LOCATIONS FOR IS XL'S IN THE ST'S!

the 3 hit rule IS in effect in MWO, and is why the side torso loss with an isxl matters. It's holdover from it.

Regardless, even if the 3hit engine crit issue isn't a problem, we fall to the "loss of components faster" issue, which leads to faster TTK, as you could crit ammo easier with AP.

It's overall a bad idea.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

This how you can describe real life modern reactive armor on tanks. And still sabot rounds punching through such armor exist.

Modern tanks don't have magic space armor made of handwavium. The point was more that the OPs idea isn't in line with TT's rules, feel, and lore.

[Mcgral18]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 31 January 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

In regards to IS XL's yes.

BECAUSE THERE ARE 3 CRITICAL LOCATIONS FOR IS XL'S IN THE ST'S!

the 3 hit rule IS in effect in MWO, and is why the side torso loss with an isxl matters. It's holdover from it.

Regardless, even if the 3hit engine crit issue isn't a problem, we fall to the "loss of components faster" issue, which leads to faster TTK, as you could crit ammo easier with AP.

It's overall a bad idea.

No, it has nothing to do directly with the fact the isXL has 3 Crit slots.
It has to do that PGI choose to give isXLs 'sidesToDie="1"'
That's the only reason isXLs die upon ST loss in MWO.

PGI choose that value because of TT, but it's irrelevant for game mechanics. Clam XLs have 'sidesToDie="2"', nothing to do with engine slots.

It is a bad idea, yes, but FLD weapons already have the closest thing to Armour Piercing, because the moment you touch Structure, you deal full Crit damage.
Hit 9 armour with an AC10? Deal 10 Crit damage (destroying ammo with only 1 damage, because of that, with the 10% roll to explode)

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Mcgral18, on 31 January 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

No, it has nothing to do directly with the fact the isXL has 3 Crit slots.
It has to do that PGI choose to give isXLs 'sidesToDie="1"'
That's the only reason isXLs die upon ST loss in MWO.

PGI choose that value because of TT, but it's irrelevant for game mechanics. Clam XLs have 'sidesToDie="2"', nothing to do with engine slots.

It is a bad idea, yes, but FLD weapons already have the closest thing to Armour Piercing, because the moment you touch Structure, you deal full Crit damage.
Hit 9 armour with an AC10? Deal 10 Crit damage (destroying ammo with only 1 damage, because of that, with the 10% roll to explode)

Fair enough.

[brroleg]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 31 January 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Actually no, it won't... you'll see people using AP rounds en-masse to 3hit crit the engine's of mechs, which will lower TTK even more.

Is that actually what you want? Faster deaths? Because this is how we get faster TTK, and that's the last damned thing this game needs right now.

It will. Damage to internal structure should not be critical hit, its should be just flat damage to internal structure health bar. Yes we need remove critical hit chances on internal structure from most weapons except machineguns and flamers. On most weapons It should be strait damage numbers to internal structure without any multipliers. And internal structure health bar is not small(especially if we bump it as i suggested at the end), it will need much more than 3 hits.

Then, before you can do serious damage to internal structure you need to remove armor. And removing armor will be actually slower then now, cause as i said all HE damage should be splash damage, like currently it has Clan ERPPC(it does 15 damage 10 of which is going to target and 5 divided between 2 adjusted body parts). So if you shooting with 15 HE damage(like ac10+ac5 at same time) to CT, CT will get only 10 damage to armor and both ST will have 2.5. This will significant lower pinpoint damage, dispersing it all across body parts.

Edited by brroleg, 31 January 2016 - 11:20 PM.

[MadcatX]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 31 January 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

Modern tanks don't have magic space armor made of handwavium. The point was more that the OPs idea isn't in line with TT's rules, feel, and lore.

This isn't a Battletech game, it's the multiplayer aspect of a MechWarrior game. I don't remember TT having ghost heat, a cool shot mechanic, clan mechs that could swap ST/Legs, special quirks, an ECM "bubble", C3 on every mech, PPDF, a heat scale with no consequences, weapon ranges that can go beyond optimal.

MW:O did originally pitch the game as being closer to btech then any other PC game and it is for a few things. But it doesn't have the lore, the feel (especially that awesome feel of rolling for crit chance on a section that has no armor), where LBX pellets were actually worth a damn.

I used to be a supporter of following the timeline but with no lore, it really isn't important.

HE/AP is one of the many aspects from WoT that MW:O shouldn't take it's inspiration from.

[brroleg]

Quote

HE/AP is one of the many aspects from WoT that MW:O shouldn't take it's inspiration from.

No. In WoT there is also no armor, there is just health bar with damage reduction which could not be changed by destroying armor with HE damage. In WoT no matter how much you pounding enemy armor with HE, you will not get any armor reduction to get more AP damage.
Actually not a single mmo game on the market has mechanic that i suggesting. And i can suggest it to MWO, only because there is already all infrastructure for this, there is already in core of game, all damage numbers, all mechanic of internals and armor has different healthbars - all of this is fitting perfectly for divining damage to HE and AP as i suggesting. This game already has half of the features needed to implement such changes, it would not need core changes to implement it.

Edited by brroleg, 08 February 2016 - 11:00 AM.