58 replies to this topic

[brroleg]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 31 January 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Here let me help you understand why that's never gonna fly in a battletech based game.

http://www.sarna.net...hs_%26_Vehicles

To those who aren't going to read it.

This fitting perfectly. With HE damage you blowing off layers of armor, with AP you trying to punch through the layers that left, and if its still to many layers, you continue to shave it with HE damage.

Edited by brroleg, 01 February 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[brroleg]

bump

[Lugh]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

Someone in other thread pointed out this problem


So i got a solution. Right now damage is simply reducing "health bars" on mech body part. Its called "armor" but its not actual armor, its health bars in current damage mechanic.

So to make feel like mech has actual armor we need to divide damage into 2 types: AP and HE.
HE damage will behavior just like casual damage - it will shred armor, reduce it. HE damage should have splash, like currently it has Clan ERPPC(it does 15 damage 10 of which is going to target and 5 divided between 2 adjusted body parts). So if you shooting with 15 HE damage to CT, CT will get only 10 damage to armor and both ST will have 2.5
But AP damage will act something like this:


For example lets take AC10. If you make it to do AP damage it will do 100% damage right to the internals of the mech if bodypart it is shooting at has 10 or less armor. And then it will scale down damage up to 100 armor, doing zero damage to body part with 100 armor. So bodypart with 75 armor will get 50% damage (5) to the internal structure. I dont know exact values of average internal structure health bars, but AC10 with AP sounds pretty OP to me. Thats why it should not be AP, it should be HE. And with HE it will just shred armor, reduce it, and after armor value will go to 0 only then gun with HE type damage will start damaging internals.
Now what guns should AP damage?
It should be UACs, also they should be able to switch ammo type on the move, like you loading both HE and AP rounds in mech and then in combat switch between them as you need. And you will need it. Cause lets take Clan-UAC-5. Per click It shoots 2 bullets with 2.5 damage each. So with AP type damage it will do zero damage to bodypart with 25 armor. And even most lights has more then 25 armor. So with Clan-UAC-5 you definitly will need to weaken armor with HE damage to put it below 25 to start doing damage with AP rounds.

Then its definitely should be Gauss Rifle, and it should do only AP damage. So with 15 damage, it will do some damage to any mech, cause i think highest armor we have is 100(it will do 5 damage to internals protected with 100 armor), and to stop Gauss from doing AP damage you will need 150. This way Gauss will be pretty lore accurate, as it was most feared weapon on the battlefield.

Also lasers. Yes, they also must be affected by this. So continuous lasers should be HE damage type. And pulse lasers should be AP. So this also will prevent laser boat domination once and for all. Cause if you boat just continuous lasers you will do only HE damage, and you will loose against those who has mixed damage setup. They will weaken your armor with HE low enough to start doing damage to your internals with AP, before you even go to his internals with only your continuous laser boat doing only HE damage. And yes, lasers should not be able to switch type of damage.
Pulse lasers stated some high damage values like 13 for Clan LPL, but its not "1 bullet", its number of "bullets" with far less damage each, just like with Clan-UAC-5. So pulse lasers being AP type damage is not OP.

PPC. Now this is should be unique weapon, doing both AP and HE damage. But mostly AP. Lets say 25% of its damage should be HE and 75% is AP. So if PPC doing 10 damage, only 2.5 of it goes to HE, goes to reducing armor. And 7.5 is AP. So to stop PPC from doing any damage you will need 75 armor. But after first shot it will reduce you armor on 2.5 point, so for next shot you will have only 72.5 armor and PPC will start doing some damage to the internals.

LBX guns. Its just raw HE damage without option to switch.

AC as i said, should all be HE damage, except AC2(mainly cause IS does not have uac-2). AC2 should be strait AP without switching.

Missiles. Strait HE damage.

Also maybe overall Internal structure Health bars should be raised across the board.


PS: Please, guys, read it all, and dont troll. I think i spent more then hour to think and wright it. Dont be rude

No.

First of all in every parlance about weapons ever AP refers to Armor Piercing ammunition that destroys armor and penetrates to the interior. It doesn't magically penetrate doing no damage to the armor.

HE universally means High Explosive ammunition. It does VERY LITTLE damage to actual armor, it's for killing infantry.

HEAT is High Explosive Anti Tank and is designed to penetrate armor to a specific depth and THEN explode inside the vehicle.

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

This how you can describe real life modern reactive armor on tanks. And still sabot rounds punching through such armor exist.

But they do not NOT do damage to that armor. Your OP description has them penetrating the armor with destroying the armor all the time. That's just silly.

[brroleg]

Quote

Armor Piercing ammunition that destroys armor

It called Armor Piercing cause its pierce armor, not destroys it. All your post is silly you dont understand basics and trying to sound smartass.

Edited by brroleg, 03 February 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Lugh]

brroleg, on 03 February 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

It called Armor Piercing cause its pierce armor, not destroys it. All your post is silly you dont understand basics and trying to sound smartass.

You are right Dear putting a big *** whole in the armor plate totally doesn't destroy it, what was I thinking. Having a gaping hole in your armor doesn't in any way increase the likelihood of further rounds penetrating through that same opening easily with advanced targeting, yup that must be it.

Next you'll be asking pgi to and glancing blows and other things that are beyond their capabilities.

[Khobai]

no. this isnt world of tanks. we dont need **** mechanics like AP/HE/Gold Ammo being added to MWO.

Quote

So i got a solution. Right now damage is simply reducing "health bars" on mech body part. Its called "armor" but its not actual armor, its health bars in current damage mechanic.

Theres already enough distinction between armor and structure. Armor protects your weapons from being critted; while structure DOESNT.

The whole reason why the crit system fails is because time-to-kill is so low that an entire location of a mech gets destroyed before crits even get a chance to occur. The solution is to increase TTK and make crits actually matter.

PGI has needed to fix TTK for a while now but they cant seem to balance their game properly.... why are 60+ damage laser vomit alphas still a thing?

Edited by Khobai, 03 February 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Lugh]

Khobai, on 03 February 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

no. this isnt world of tanks. we dont need **** mechanics like AP/HE/Gold Ammo being added to MWO.



Theres already enough distinction between armor and structure. Armor protects your weapons from being critted; while structure DOESNT.

The whole reason why the crit system fails is because time-to-kill is so low that an entire location of a mech gets destroyed before crits even get a chance to occur. The solution is to increase TTK and make crits actually matter.

PGI has needed to fix TTK for a while now but they cant seem to balance their game properly.... why are 60+ damage laser vomit alphas still a thing?

Because they threw out TT's Heat Scale and Heat Scale penalty system. They dorked about with Heatsinks not being the full value of the HS in Table top and heat dissipation is too low in this game, even though the rate of fire is too high.

They couldn't even calculate the Jam rate on the UAC5,it's snake eyes a 1 1 on two d6 or a 2.9% chance. Here 25% Nice work on that translation.

[axe64]

i think the poster has no idea what the concept of HE or AP means like how can a laser be high explosive
and saying AP rounds would do no damage if a certain object has so much armor defeats the purpose of the item being armor piercing if it cant pierce armor

also im not really big on things should be exactly like table top cuz theres things i support that arent in table top that are in this game however i believe this would be too far out of touch with original table top mechanics anyway and offer not really muhh of a improvement

plus i think it might have a unintended consequence of nerfing the hell out of lighter mechs that cant carry that many weapons

Edited by axe64, 03 February 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[C I L L I P U D D I]

Can we have Gold Rounds as well?

[axe64]

i think what i would like to be added is melee
a melee attack has 1km range and causes a nuclear explosion once the attack lands
the explosion shoots out ac 20 rounds in every direction

any mech in the area will have radiation sickness and recieve 20 points of poison damage every second to simulation the radon molecules circulating in the oil of the affected mech

Edited by axe64, 03 February 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[brroleg]

No, its not about realistic armor system. Its about armor system that just enriches gameplay in first place, and also occasionally fits in the lore. Cause there is some info about AP ammo in lore. And according to lore armor is layered, so its kinda lore related that i suggested you can shave "layers of" armor with HE damage to make it more compliant to pass more AP damage strait to the internals without affecting armor itself.

[wanderer]

<- that guy the OP quotes at the beginning.

Honestly,we don't need a more complex armor damage model in the way you're describing. The reasons so much is borked about MWO's damage modeling is because of how many shortcuts ended up being taken or put in as "fixes".

Perfect converging damage minimizes the very kind of damage spread that increases TTK- and decreases the amount of time a meaningful equipment-damaging hit could happen. A crit system that is far, far more likely to have "armor killers" that inflict big bricks of damage one-shot equipment than the multi-hit weapons designed to scrub out equipment is a double-tap against weapons like LB-X's, which in TT are nasty because critting in TT is about hitting the exposed internals -often-, not it single "penetrating" hits of single large chunks of damage. Worse, a critical hit with said large chunks carves an even larger chunk out of structure, making it even more appealing to just blast the entire section to zero and thereby remove any equipment anyway.

This isn't to say that weapons can't be damage-modeled to be more dangerous to equipment than raw armor/internal damage. Rather than crits adding extra internal damage, they can be modeled to deliver more or less damage to equipment. If an LB-X pellet dealt 5 damage out of a potential 10 to an equipment slot, a cluster of them would be very good for scrapping whatever is under the armor- while not simply blowing out the internal structure, as they'd still do their normal damage of 1ish there. Ditto SRMs. Likewise, big guns can give reduced equipment damage- doing fractional portions of their normal damage to armor/structure to equipment- and again, remove additional structure damage for crits. Even at 50%, that still means a PPC is going to gnaw at equipment, but it won't autokill it.

Weapons like LB-X and SRMs should be very dangerous to equipment- in part because MWO makes them MUCH less dangerous to everything else. Likewise, the weapons most effective at focused damage should be less effective at burning out equipment.

[Nightmare1]

What I get out of the OP is this:

Broken hit-reg, broken hit-reg everywhere!

Traditional convergence doesn't help either. It also promises to break hit-reg.

Here's my solution, borrowed from another pilot:

Have each weapon fire straight forward when you do not have a target locked. When you are locked onto a target and have the info (i.e. - ragdoll), the weapons fire like they do now with instant convergence.

This does two things:

1) It forces people to press "R." It prepares the ground a bit for InfoTech Warfare which we got to test a while back in the PTS.

2) There aren't any complicated mechanics. You literally have a "Convergence On/Convergence Off" mechanic like a light switch. Hence, hit-reg shouldn't really suffer. This would be a good compromise between the faction that wants dynamic convergence (never gonna happen y'all; too broken) as well as the group that wants to maintain instant convergence.

Personally, speaking, I rather cotton to the idea. I've been in the instant-convergence camp for a while now, primarily because there's no way to implement dynamic convergence without breaking the game or creating some imbalance between the different weight classes and weapon types. This solves the whole problem nicely though.

ECM wouldn't be an issue because PGI has already stated that it's getting nerfed to lose it's hard counter. It'll just be a soft counter that extends lock-on time by a few seconds without actually preventing it.

[brroleg]

Okey, i was wondering where you get this nonsense about gold ammo and wot. Cause i think any who really got what im trying to suggest cant dislike it.

And i came to conclusion that you didnt get it. You for some reason misunderstood and think that i suggest to be AP only just do more damage then "regular" ammo. You are wrong.

First of all. Let me explain what damage system battle mechs have in this game at this moment. We have, lets call it "exterior armor". Amount of "exterior armor" on your mech you can change by yourself in mechlab. And we have "interior armor", which you can not change in mechlab directly, it affected only by quirks called "Additional Structure". This damage system is what it is now, we already have it. And i like it very much. I just think we waste the potential of this damage system.

I just suggesting to divide weapon into pure "anti structure", and "anti armor". Add specialization to weapons.

AP type damage will not damage armor of the mech at all. It will just check current mech armor value, to calculate if the AP damage can go to the internal structure, or if armor is to thick to completely block AP damage.

HE damage is what is damaging armor. It also can damage structure if ALL armor is gone.

With this system BOATING is gone. Boaters will always loose to those that has on their mech both type damage weapons, AP and HE.

And you wrong that this game does not need such "complicated" damage system. Cause first - its not complicated, double-layered armor system is already in game, you just need tweak guns a little and thats all. Second - forum is full of thread about how combat is monotonous and boating oriented. You cant fix it with just nerfs or buffs, cause current guns is all just dps and range - nothing more. And its all comes to which gun does more dps and if i can boat it.

Edited by brroleg, 05 February 2016 - 05:57 AM.

[brroleg]

bump

[SuomiWarder]

Not convinced that the complexity would be worth anything in game terms. Regardless of real world AP/HE/HEAT rounds. Or that lasers kinda look like they bore neat holes but actually they boil away material in a violent, small explosive reaction.

I would somewhat like to see an non B Tech cannon hardness factor to armor so that say small lasers do reduced damage against the heaviest armor, an AC 20 might get bonus damage against "light" armor, etc to make having one large weapon more advantageous than four medium or smaller ones. But have not really looked at the math involved to try to make sure light mechs don't get nerfed out of use and mediums don't suffer more uselessness than they have now.

[C I L L I P U D D I]

Gold Rounds or Rito

[brroleg]

SuomiWarder, on 08 February 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

I would somewhat like to see an non B Tech cannon hardness factor to armor so that say small lasers do reduced damage against the heaviest armor, an AC 20 might get bonus damage against "light" armor, etс

This is literary thousand times more complex thing to do than my suggestion.

[brroleg]

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[brroleg]

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