62 replies to this topic

[kesmai]

They did.
and if you look at the large scale netcode implementation in unity 3&4 they had good reasons to do so.

[Lugh]

kesmai, on 01 February 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

Don't know if changing the render path will really help. Cryengine is a suboptimal engine, well known for not being very resourceful.
it is not completely pgi's fault this games has it's problems.

PGI chose the Cry Engine. Therefor it is PGI's fault.

[LordNothing]

at least if you upgrade to a new version of the existing engine you have access to whatever migration tools are available. they arent gonna give you tools to migrate to another company's engine.

[crustydog]

I am still running the game in DX9 - for some reason or another the DX11 MWO crashes on my machine. I'm not the only player with this problem. The machine is 13 months old, and it has plenty of power in all of the required areas. It is current with accepted norms for a gaming box.

Maybe in six months or so I'll upgrade to Windows 10 and DX12, but I have no pressing need to do that at the moment.

DX9 is working fine.

[LordNothing]

moore's law also isnt moving as fast as it was 10 years ago. im getting 5+ years out of machines now. the only reason i havent upgraded in the last 3 years is because new hardware would not be significantly better than what i have now. add on to that that i only purchase like 2 or 3 games a year (and mech purchases count), its really not worth it sitting on the bleeding edge.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 February 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[burns]

The level of ignorance in these kind of threads never fails to get me upset. It should be a physical law that anytime users saying something uninformed about systems that are older than their own should just get whacked in the face.

DX10/11 or 12 is not going to make the game run or look ALOT better than it does now, and certainly not would it do that "suddenly when you said it was OK so"!!!

Also that Unity mention is just cringeworthy - pls stahp -.-



Here´s some data: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Half of steam users still using dx10 (the dx9 equivalent since vista). That doesn´t mean dx10 is better than dx9, nor does it mean dx9 is dead. Steam just doctored the stats a little (same with DX11GPU % Vista - those are probably budget cards struggling to play minesweeper..)

Moral of the story: You don´t cockblock half of planet earths population from playing your game

[CMDR Argo]

There is always the case of those who have spent RL money on this game in mech packs and other assorted mech goods, will have to be refunded if they go away from dx9 and leave out a large part of the player base. PGI will leave themselves open for a class action lawsuit if those funds are not refunded. Elite Dangerous Runs 2 different launchers that will allow those that cant run the higher DX versions and those who can, seems to work out well. I the Elite player base wants to run the newer version of dx and content then they have to upgrade to a newer system to handle it.

[Imperius]

There will be no lawsuit this is an evolving product.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

ThomasMarik, on 01 February 2016 - 02:24 AM, said:

Didn't PGI intentio ally choose cry over unity?

Yup, the licensing costs were way way WAAAAAAY lower for cry engine at the time.

[pbiggz]

Jesus alot of people here are talking like they're graphics programmers, and from what they are saying, I can tell they are not graphics programmers.

Do you people even know what directX is?

MrMadguy, on 01 February 2016 - 01:03 AM, said:

There is a major rule in game development: don't fix, what isn't broken.
Today switching to DX11 doesn't bring any benefits and on DX9 game runs much smoother.
Some people just don't understand, that switching to new engine won't instantly magically make game 100500 times better.

Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about.


DX9 runs smooth in MWO because on the custom cryengine build MWO is built on, the DX9 render pipeline was written by crytek engineers, while the DX11 render pipeline was written without crytek support, in house by PGI, probably by underpaid programmers who no longer work there.

If we push to the next update of Cryengine and actually get support from Crytek, PGI never touches the render pipeline again, and you get better frames on low with DX11 even at the low end than you do with DX9 at high graphics right now. Its a seriously big deal.

MrMadguy, on 01 February 2016 - 01:31 AM, said:

This is nothing more, then marketing to force people to switch to Windows 10. Back in old days of Vista Microsoft also promised, that new driver model in DX10/DX11 will bring extreme performance on the same hardware. And what we see? Game, i.e. game data, such as textures, effects, shaders, geometry, is exactly the same - and DX11 runs approx 30% slower, then DX9. And DX9 isn't so obsolete - it actually was updated to support DX10/DX11 features. It's called DX9Ex.

And DX9 is like 386 architecture back in x86 days - is mandatory minimal standard, that you should implement, if you want your game to be widespread. Almost all games, where quality of graphics - isn't so important, still implement it, cuz this games just doesn't require new features, such as tessellation and geometry shaders. And MWO doesn't too.

You should understand, that graphic tech came to it's limit. Graphic is so good, that it's now very hard to make it better enough, to make players want to buy new hardware. That's why now hardware developers are advertising teches, that don't bring any benefits, but require very powerful hardware. Such as VR, tessellation and 4k displays. But you should know. In order to enjoy the game - you don't need anything beyond DX9. DX9 - is golden standard.

DX9 is ten years old. It is not the golden standard, it hasn't been for quite some time.

kesmai, on 01 February 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

Don't know if changing the render path will really help. Cryengine is a suboptimal engine, well known for not being very resourceful.
it is not completely pgi's fault this games has it's problems.

Cryengine is an industry standard engine, just like Unity and Unreal. I don't understand what you're talking about.

Edited by pbiggz, 01 February 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[kesmai]

pbiggz, on 01 February 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

Cryengine is an industry standard engine, just like Unity and Unreal. I don't understand what you're talking about.

There are not many open resources to derive results or even information from. it is a typical "inhouse" engine. hiring the support of crytek to help with engineering is possible, but sometimes a very slow process and it can get quite expensive, although the cost of the engine is low, the engine itself needs a lot of manpower/willtolearn (*call it what you want*) to be handled in a way that the clients computing power is not the main wall you crash in.
there are a lot of possiilities the engine has, especially the physics engine is superb, but even ce1 (it is + 10 years old) is able to bring a state of the art pc down to it´s knees if draw calls are out of synchronisation...

Edited by kesmai, 01 February 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[pbiggz]

kesmai, on 01 February 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

There are not many open resources to derive results or even information from. it is a typical "inhouse" engine. hiring the support of crytek to help with engineering is possible, but sometimes a very slow process and it can get quite expensive, although the cost of the engine is low, the engine itself needs a lot of manpower/willtolearn (*call it what you want*) to be handled in a way that the clients computing power is not the main wall you crash in.

Cryengine is tailored towards actual development studios with some kind of secured funding. Unreal and unity appeal more to indy games but have those high end tools as well. In the end, different tools for different jobs. Regardless, Cryengine is just as easy to learn as unreal, it just does things under the hood differently. You guys seem to be giving alot of hate to cryengine that unreal doesn't get. They're pretty much at parity, it just depends on what you want. Crytek, as i understand it gives better support to developers, but again, is more expensive, while unreal has a steep learning curve but is powerful even in the hands of someone without funding.

If it were my choice we would have been on unreal from the beginning, but that doesn't mean cryengine is a BAD engine. Its powerful, good looking, and runs smoothly, it just so happens that MWO's version though, is a customized beta version of cryengine 3 from 2012. A 4 year old, mostly unupdated engine will begin to show signs of age very quickly, as it has been.

[kesmai]

pbiggz, on 01 February 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Cryengine is tailored towards actual development studios with some kind of secured funding. Unreal and unity appeal more to indy games but have those high end tools as well. In the end, different tools for different jobs. Regardless, Cryengine is just as easy to learn as unreal, it just does things under the hood differently. You guys seem to be giving alot of hate to cryengine that unreal doesn't get. They're pretty much at parity, it just depends on what you want. Crytek, as i understand it gives better support to developers, but again, is more expensive, while unreal has a steep learning curve but is powerful even in the hands of someone without funding.

If it were my choice we would have been on unreal from the beginning, but that doesn't mean cryengine is a BAD engine. Its powerful, good looking, and runs smoothly, it just so happens that MWO's version though, is a customized beta version of cryengine 3 from 2012. A 4 year old, mostly unupdated engine will begin to show signs of age very quickly, as it has been.

infact cryengine is on a to use basis way cheaper than your example unreal is. it is the direct engineering support that can get quit expensive.
i do not dislike cryengine, and you are right that available funding is very important, but that is the fact with every game.
in the end they have chosen cryengine and have to make the best out of it. still i do not expect much from an upgrade and dx12.

[pbiggz]

kesmai, on 01 February 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

infact cryengine is on a to use basis way cheaper than your example unreal is. it is the direct engineering support that can get quit expensive.
i do not dislike cryengine, and you are right that available funding is very important, but that is the fact with every game.
in the end they have chosen cryengine and have to make the best out of it. still i do not expect much from an upgrade and dx12.

Well the point iv been making is that you are free to expect LOTS from it, because, when it comes to the rendering, PGI doesn't do that anymore with a Cryengine upgrade.

I think most people are skeptical because PGI "cant do anything right", and while there is obviously truth to that, the beauty of the engine upgrade is that its not even up to PGI to screw it up. When it comes to the actual performance upgrades and graphics upgrades, optimization and other under the hood things, Crytek pulls the weight. That's the beauty of it.

[kesmai]

pbiggz, on 01 February 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Well the point iv been making is that you are free to expect LOTS from it, because, when it comes to the rendering, PGI doesn't do that anymore with a Cryengine upgrade.

I think most people are skeptical because PGI "cant do anything right", and while there is obviously truth to that, the beauty of the engine upgrade is that its not even up to PGI to screw it up. When it comes to the actual performance upgrades and graphics upgrades, optimization and other under the hood things, Crytek pulls the weight. That's the beauty of it.

i´m gonna take you by the word now.

[Mister Blastman]

Thorqemada, on 31 January 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

With Dx9 + Dx12 you have the whole market!

And that is smart. Maximize your user base to sustain cash flow.

[Impyrium]

MrMadguy, on 01 February 2016 - 01:03 AM, said:

There is a major rule in game development: don't fix, what isn't broken.
Today switching to DX11 doesn't bring any benefits and on DX9 game runs much smoother.
Some people just don't understand, that switching to new engine won't instantly magically make game 100500 times better.

That is a silly rule that is most certainly not golden. If everyone used that mentality we'd never see any progression or improvement.

DX12 support goes a long, long way back down the line, and if you don't have a card in that range I'd be questioning your ability to play MWO in the first place.

[pbiggz]

Mister Blastman, on 01 February 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

And that is smart. Maximize your user base to sustain cash flow.

Its also technically impossible. You can't support 10 year old API AND modern API, especially when most of DX9 was depricated by the time DX11 hit.

[cSand]

Some edumacatin' for certain folks in this thread:

DX9ex and DX9l were for Vista and XP repectively to allow DX10 to be used. Basically, DX10 for both of those OS's. IE, not relevant to this discussion, unless you are running Vista or XP (god help you if so)

DX in latest iterations is more than just marketing BS, you will never be able to use all the nice features modern hardware provides, if your software is stuck only supporting DX9. It is 10 years old and borderline obsolete (it is older than the minimum spec machine PGI lists for this game, let's put it that way. And those specs are not gonna give you a nice looking MWO.)

While DX9 and DX11 visually, especially in MWO, look very similar. Now I'm not sure for this title, but in others certainly you should be able to see some differences in AA and lighting at the very least. How PGI implemented I can't comment on. I notice no negative differences, but on DX11 and I may just be placebo-ing here but it seems to me anyways the lighting is a bit smoother, and the water rendering nicer. But DX itself is not some kinda "oh I turned on DX11 and so I should see visual improvements and performance increases".

Some comment was made about Win 10 being spyware. Which is standard comments from the uneducated. I can't stress this enough especially to the die hard Win10 haters, if you spend literally 5-10 minutes learning about your operating system, you can disable almost all of this stuff from the GUI. A little more time learning and you can get the rest from security policy/advanced settings. I cannot believe that people who use a computer more than an hour a day, and spend hours b*tching about XXXX feature of Windows they don't like, but can't seem to justify spending 10 minutes to actually learn about the OS and an additional 5 minutes changing settings to their preferences.

Hell, it took me half an hour to inspect Windows 10 deeply and then write a Powershell script that removes/disables:

- Cortana
- OneDrive
- all "apps" including the Windows store, barring a few unremovable ones (Edge browser for instance)
- various features I found to be "infringing" such as anonymous usage metrics etc.

BTW if anyone wants this script, with instructions, PM me. It works flawlessly and comes in several flavours (depending on how heavy handed you want to be ) Tested thoroughly on a fresh install of Windows 10 pro/ Should work fine on Home as well. Should also work fine on Windows 10 upgraded from 7/8.1, but, I have not tested as much on that, though I have used it on my work computer which was upgraded, and no issues for several months now. So, should be A-OK.
EDIT: I have placed a link to my script in my forum profile, go nuts (and use at your own risk )

Anyways I'm sure there are other points mentioned in here I can slamdance on but I'll leave dignities intact.

TL/DR

Learn to use your computer properly FFS

Dingo Red, on 01 February 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

That is a silly rule that is most certainly not golden. If everyone used that mentality we'd never see any progression or improvement.

DX12 support goes a long, long way back down the line, and if you don't have a card in that range I'd be questioning your ability to play MWO in the first place.

I think you mean DX9 support, DX12 is I believe only as far back as cards that support DX11.2

Edited by cSand, 01 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Mystere]

Lugh, on 01 February 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

PGI chose the Cry Engine. Therefor it is PGI's fault.

God created Man. Therefore it is God's fault.