32 replies to this topic

[Zoid]

There are loads of complaints about how structure buffs are bad and useless because you just get your weapons stripped off, but those are missing that that's the point.

TTK is an undeniable problem in this game, so what do structure buffs do? In general, they make the 'mech harder to kill but no harder to disarm, partially or completely. So now there's actually a choice for where you want to shoot other than all CT, all the time.

The end result is you get a lot of 'mechs that have very few guns left when they die, which further increases TTK. In a decently-balanced fight, the last few 'mechs standing are going to take a while to kill each other because they just don't have much left for firepower.

A good way to look at this is to think what would happen if every 'mech was given some insane structure quirks, like +100 to the CT and +50 to both ST. Games would probably not end in the 15 minute limit because everyone would be out of guns before the other side is dead.

Structure quirks make this more toward the actual thinking man's shooter it claims to be. Now it is extremely helpful to, for example, know exactly where to shoot to get rid of that AC/20. Otherwise it's just shoot for the head/CT like every other shooter.

[Mcgral18]

+20 is a good structure quirk

+5 is not


Guess where most of them were prior to the most recent change?
Doesn't change the fact armour is always superior, and doesn't increase your fall damage taken.

Edited by Mcgral18, 02 February 2016 - 09:57 AM.

[FupDup]

PGI does structure buffs instead of armor buffs because they think that it makes their crit-seeking weapons relevant.

[Tyler Valentine]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

PGI does structure buffs instead of armor buffs because they think that it makes their crit-seeking weapons relevant.

Doubtful. I think they do it specifically for the reason the OP outlines. It allows for 'mechs to be disabled without being destroyed... Increasing TTK and increasing strategy by forcing a player to decide if they want to go for components (faster) or the kill.

[Darian DelFord]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

PGI does structure buffs instead of armor buffs because they think that it makes their crit-seeking weapons relevant.

ROFL

You got a like for that one Fup

[DjPush]

In my opinion, structure quirks and weapons quirks decease TTK by only driving the populus to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds. I feel that to increase TTK, PGI should do these 3 things:

1. Remove cool shot from the game. Or make the modules take up a ton of total weight to account for the fluid being replaced.
2. Revamp the heat scale so that penalties begin at 90% instead of 120%
3. Revert lS weapons to pre-ghost heat era. Before they started nerfing them for IS vs. IS combat. It's Clan vs. IS now. Time to take the gloves off.

Mostly just heat scale stuff.

[Tyler Valentine]

DjPush, on 02 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

In my opinion, structure quirks and weapons quirks decease TTK by only driving the populus to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds. I feel that to increase TTK, PGI should do these 3 things:

1. Remove cool shot from the game. Or make the modules take up a ton of total weight to account for the fluid being replaced.
2. Revamp the heat scale so that penalties begin at 90% instead of 120%
3. Revert lS weapons to pre-ghost heat era. Before they started nerfing them for IS vs. IS combat. It's Clan vs. IS now. Time to take the gloves off.

Mostly just heat scale stuff.

I agree that we need a dynamic heat scale but how do structure buffs "drive the populus(sic) to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds"?

Don't they just do that because it is the fastest way to kill another Stompy Robot?

[DjPush]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

I agree that we need a dynamic heat scale but how do structure buffs "drive the populus(sic) to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds"?

Don't they just do that because it is the fastest way to kill another Stompy Robot?

Right. Structure quirks add hp to the mech. This, in turn, might cause pilots who may have been using more mixed load out builds to switch to a more 'meta' build. Myself is one of these pilots. God like super structure quirked mechs like the Battlemaster and Blackjack have no problem staring down a mixed weapons Highlander or Cataphract or even a Timber, when their structure quirks ensure that they can tank enough damage to get off an ample amount of alphas (which their weapons quirks now allow) and still walk away to take on another mech.

[cazidin]

Structure and agility quirks are great ways to increase TTK but personally, I'd prefer additional armor instead - with a buff to how much internal structure HP you have. Thus, even without quirks you'll be a bit more resilient.

[Aresye]

DjPush, on 02 February 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Right. Structure quirks add hp to the mech. This, in turn, might cause pilots who may have been using more mixed load out builds to switch to a more 'meta' build. Myself is one of these pilots. God like super structure quirked mechs like the Battlemaster and Blackjack have no problem staring down a mixed weapons Highlander or Cataphract or even a Timber, when their structure quirks ensure that they can tank enough damage to get off an ample amount of alphas (which their weapons quirks now allow) and still walk away to take on another mech.

Yup, and now anybody who decides to take a mech without extra structure or going 100% meta is punished even more than they used to.

[Zoid]

DjPush, on 02 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

In my opinion, structure quirks and weapons quirks decease TTK by only driving the populus to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds.

I don't think you're ever going to get away from that. If there's one constant of online gaming, it is that most players just want to win. There's always a vocal minority that talks about taking the builds/weapons/whatever they like and preferring that to just roflstomping, but let's be honest, most players just want to roflstomp. I sincerely doubt that a significant portion of the playerbase would change to sub-optimal 'mechs just because other 'mechs are easier to kill.

[wanderer]

You know what would improve TTK?

Not being able to put every weapon into the same hit location, even at obscenely long ranges.

[FupDup]

DjPush, on 02 February 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

In my opinion, structure quirks and weapons quirks decease TTK by only driving the populus to load out high pinpoint, optimal alpha builds.

That's what the populace did before quirks were added to the game.

That's also what the populace did before this iteration of Mechwarrior was even developed.

Players have pretty much always gravitated towards the builds that are the most suited for killing enemy players. This isn't exactly a new development. The specific builds may have changed, but the process of min-maxing has not.

[Pjwned]

You know what would fix TTK even better?

Not having overdone range, cooldown, and heat quirks on every mech and also not having 100% power creep weapon modules that add on to the overdone quirks.

Then of course the perfect instant convergence on every weapon at all times makes it even worse.

PGI won't do anything to properly fix any of it though.

[Tyler Valentine]

Aresye, on 02 February 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Yup, and now anybody who decides to take a mech without extra structure or going 100% meta is punished even more than they used to.

Bologna!

It's up to you to break the meta not PGI. Take other weapons and suffer through the learning curve. LASERs are not OP they're just easier.

[FupDup]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Bologna!

It's up to you to break the meta not PGI. Take other weapons and suffer through the learning curve. LASERs are not OP they're just easier.

Well, they're actually both. They have incredible alpha-strike damage for relatively low tonnage, with being hitscan as a cherry on top.

[Tyler Valentine]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Well, they're actually both. They have incredible alpha-strike damage for relatively low tonnage, with being hitscan as a cherry on top.

They also have duration and produce massive amounts of heat negating much of their weight savings. They are only OP IF they are easier. They are only easier if you don't take the time to practice with other weapon systems.

The perception that they are OP stems from people being too lazy or too concerned with their K/D ratio to take the time to get good at the more difficult to use weapons.

[FupDup]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

They also have duration and produce massive amounts of heat negating much of their weight savings. They are only OP IF they are easier. They are only easier if you don't take the time to practice with other weapon systems.

The perception that they are OP stems from people being too lazy or too concerned with their K/D ratio to take the time to get good at the more difficult to use weapons.

Duration is only an issue for the Clam ERLL. Every other laser is pretty manageable.

For heat, it depends on the build more than anything. Some builds do certainly get real hot (usually having a huge alpha strike in the process), or some other builds nudge down the alpha in exchange for better sustainability.

[5LeafClover]

Zoid, on 02 February 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

TTK is an undeniable problem in this game

This was totally the case a year ago, but these days mechs are a touch on the chewy side. Fix the worst offenders and things would be in a decent position TTK wise.

[Tyler Valentine]

FupDup, on 02 February 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Duration is only an issue for the Clam ERLL. Every other laser is pretty manageable.

Clan ER Meds and IS ERLL take some skill as well, TBF

Managing duration implies that it is still an issue. I don't have to manage anything with an autocannon except where to press the mouse button. Job done.

I'm certainly not saying that LASERs are useless but this notion that they are the only viable weapon system is getting a little old. The other weapons in this game perform just as well or better with, admittedly, practice.