92 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

I... just saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to Geiko?

[Mystere]

Lugh, on 03 February 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

The foundation is poorly defined.

Bingo!

[CDLord HHGD]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

I just wanted to point out here that the reason for negative engine weights isn't because of gyros and cockpits, it's because of heatsinks. In TT, your external heatsinks were counted directly into the engine's tonnage. MWO can't distinguish between a normal external sink or a required base 10 external sink, so PGI just subtracted the tonnage of the external sinks from the engine itself.

For example, the STD60 requires 8 external sinks. That requires 8 tons, so PGI reduced the weight of the STD60 by 8 tons. The addition of the gyro and cockpit to the STD60 wasn't enough to push its initial weight into the positive digits.

After you add all of the external sinks you need to launch the mech, then the engines weights work out in the end. It's weird, but mathematically correct.


I still wish that all 10 base sinks were built internally into every sub-250 engine.

Very valid.... And something can can be addressed in such a way that we don;t end up with engines that defy gravity.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 February 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

With 3025 tech loadouts, it requires more than 12 mechs to beat 10 Clans. Either way, why would anyone one want to play that? How is that even a better game when SO many stock loadouts overlap with other stock loadouts.

Nowhere did I say you had to keep a mech stock though. Stock loadouts are the worst hence the quirks, but you are still able to mechlab the mechs within the constraints allowed my my sized hardpoint hypothesis.

[Void Angel]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

I've advocated for a long time a move to tech 2, but it seems to be opposed not by clanners (who IS fanboys would tell you are conspiring with russ to make clans even moar OP) but by hard, hard, hard core IS fan boys who want to see the timeline rolled BACK to 3025. They want tech 1, stock only. Removal of the mech lab and all the clans. Of course this will never happen, but those people are perhaps the biggest blocker to progress here that you'll ever find. You can find lots of great debates here, but when it comes to clan VS IS balance those same people will storm your thread like police raiding a grow op and they'll talk **** right in your face until you want to quit the game.

Uh, those guys are a tiny minority of the player base, and PGI knows it. Many of the players in my unit don't really care enough about hard-core lore nerddom to oppose a tech increase - some don't know more than the bare bones, and a few have never heard of Battletech before MWO. The few guys I've seen who want - or think they want; careful what you wish for - things like all-stock 3025 'mechs, lore-based Clan supertechnology, etc. tend to be inhabitants of Troll Island. They're in the minority of a sub-population of the player base - and remember, half of us are from Steam now. How likely are people who didn't even know the game was running to be super-keen lore-loving book-wavers?

Not many, I think. It's far more probable that the reason we're not seeing more balance factors introduced is that the ones we've already got still need tuning - and because a lot of the resources needed to balance that new stuff are being put to work on developing CW into a completed game mode.

Pariah Devalis, on 03 February 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

I... just saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to Geiko?

Still a better love story than Twilight Still not the least constructive comment on the thread!

[Mawai]

Paigan, on 03 February 2016 - 01:21 AM, said:

Lorewise, clans have better tech and are supposed to be better, because IS tech has decayed over the centuries to moreless crap (sorry Freebirthers ).

Normally, this is balanced by some "rigid" tactics of the clans (right down to being almost stupid) and on the IS side by superior numbers and "mean" tactics (ambushes, artillery strikes, etc.).

Think of it like clans being 10 knights in shiny armor that ride honorably into battle and IS being >30 or so villagers. In a "normal" battle, the knights will always slaughter the villagers. But if the villagers get a good situation, play mean or work together well, they can stomp the 10 knights, no sweat.

Personally, I think this is a VERY nice balancing approach and it could be easily done in MWO with a few XML edits (e.g. give only IS modules and consumables to represent tinkering and tactics and give IS more drop tonnage and drop waves, even in quickplay. Tada: perfect lorewise balance achieved).

Russ doesn't want that kind of balance, but instead he wants a simplified, lore-breaking "everything is equally good" approach. So he has to magically quirk up lostech crap until it is on par with or many times even better than high tech (which is pretty stupid, but here we are).

Normally, Mechs wouldn't have any quirks at all, or maybe quirks that give them "character" (5% better here, but in turn 5% worse there). That would be much cooler. But again, here we are.

As far as the unrealistic 3% go:
See it as an abstraction. It doesn't make too much sense in a realistic way, but it allows for nice tinkering and build engineering.

LOL. The first problem with your "suggestion" is that is assumes that clans and IS would drop on different sides since that is the ONLY way any of your balancing suggestions would work. The problem with this is queue times. The number of players playing IS and the number of players playing clans are not equal. It only takes a small imbalance to get queues to increase indefinitely.

e.g. There are 50000 players queuing for matches every hour. Lets say, 26000 clans, 24000 IS. This means that every hour the clan queue grows by 2000 players. How long does it take to process a 2000 player backlog? Well there are 24000 IS available every hour so all things being equal that represents a 5 minute wait after an hour in a situation where the numbers are almost equal. Lets say it was 20,000 IS and 30,000 clans ... not too big a discrepancy ... however, the wait time after an hour is up to 30 minutes and IT ONLY GROWS. The situation is made worse when you have uneven numbers on each side since the queues then run at different rates for IS and clans. This simple math is one of the reasons why CW wait times can be long ... if the sides are perfectly matched queues for one or the other will grow indefinitely.

The one solution that could be applied is "Battlevalue" ... if it was possible to numerically define the relative capability of a mech and its build and weight that by another value representing pilot skill in that chassis then you could create two teams of uneven numbers of players with random mechs that MIGHT be balanced ... assuming the numerical scale is accurate, that the players play to their potential, and that no one makes a mistake. (The problem being that designing such a system is both challenging and inherently inaccurate .. probably enough to make it a bad metric for match balancing).

As for quirks, none of you seem to have read any of the notes from the townhall ..
1) IS range for large laser quirks will be limited to a maximum of 10%
2) Negative quirks on clan mechs will be removed
3) Underperforming clan mechs will be getting quirks.

I don't think there are ANY 50% quirks left anyway (except on a lolcust).. most of them were nerfed ages ago. In addition, some of the rate of fire complaints apply to one variant of one mech with one weapon. Folks are braindead if they base the entire balance of clan vs IS on one mech ... that doesn't even see that much use to be honest. I'd still take a Timberwolf and in some cases a Stormcrow over it.

Final anecdote, I was playing my Stormcrows on the weekend a bit ... and they were doing much better than most of my quirked IS mediums. C-LPL and C-ERML was just one build that was effective. The speed made it very easy to apply damage and seek cover or quickly take advantage of opponents who moved out of position. Overall balance is not as bad as the OP would seem to believe at least in my opinion.

Edited by Mawai, 03 February 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Lugh, on 03 February 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

The thing is IS mechs DON'T suck versus clan mechs, when used with standard engines IS mechs are every bit as durable as Clan mechs. The downside is that you will be a little bit slower. But you can easily bring enough firepower to compete.

When people post this crap, its really hard to take them seriously..

[Void Angel]

adamts01, on 03 February 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

Exactly this.

OP: Clans are getting + quirks very soon and losing all their - quirks while IS range quirks are getting caped at 10% and some chassis are getting reduced structure buffs. So the imbalance should be drastically lessened soon.

What I find to be the biggest problem is not IS vs Clan, but weight balancing. PGI is trying to make a 60 ton heavy equal to a 75 ton heavy for solo/group que, but that plays havoc with CW where a 75 ton heavy should be more powerful than a 60 ton heavy. They need to decide which way they're going to balance the game and stick with it. I say balance tonnage for CW, then give a c-bill bonus to lighter chassis in solo/group.

Holy crap! a reasoned response

pbiggz, on 03 February 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

IS still has its structure. Im not advocating that we get rid of that altogether (although i think there are far more elegant ways to balance) but whether the february patch really balances clan and IS or is just a bunch of superficial changes remains to be seen.

Regardless of the outcome, fixing the giant hole in balance caused by hyperquirked ER Large Lasers is not superficial, nor is the removal of the sometimes severe negative quirks for certain Clan omnipods. Reducing the excessive range quirks will mean that the Inner Sphere can no longer have its cake, and eat it too. Right now, you have Inner Sphere 'mechs that can brawl successfully against the Clans, and other 'mechs (or sometimes the same one) that can out-range them even with Targeting Computers. Meanwhile the Clans are still paying penalties in beam duration and heat per dps for their own weapons; even with their generally lighter and smaller guns (and heat sinks.)

This doesn't show up too much in the solo queue, because the Clans still have an advantage in average ranges. But in a competitive environment, even solo CW, the Clans are paying for a range advantage they don't actually have unless the Inner Sphere leaves it on the table - while the Inner Sphere still has a lot of good close combatants. This leads to a situation where the Inner Sphere can suppress the Clans with unanswerable damage from long range, then close before the Adjective animals can inflict serious damage, and then batter the Clans apart with heat-efficient weapons while they overheat.

It doesn't make the Inner Sphere invincible, mind you - there's still stuff that you can do, particularly in the planning phase. But the overall advantage seems clearly on the side of the Inner Sphere, at least in this one area, and it needed to be fixed.

[Rhaythe]

Pariah Devalis, on 03 February 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

I... just saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to Geiko?

"We're sixth in line, Jimmy!"

[Wolfways]

Monkey Lover, on 03 February 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

rofl if you hate clans so much why you playing them?

Who doesnt change the omni-pods? Why wouldnt you use a 1 ton TC for increased crit rates? If you can't count the huge number of hardpoints on the good clan mechs than i can't help you.

I like the clans for the lore and their mechs are much better looking than IS mechs.
I don't change the omni-pods because the mechs I use already have the pods I want, so no reason to change them.
I'd rather use a DHS than a tc because firing more often is better.
Having lots of hardpoints means little if you have to remove weapons or fit small ones because of the high heat generation.

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 03 February 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

LOL. The first problem with your "suggestion" is that is assumes that clans and IS would drop on different sides since that is the ONLY way any of your balancing suggestions would work. The problem with this is queue times. The number of players playing IS and the number of players playing clans are not equal. It only takes a small imbalance to get queues to increase indefinitely.

e.g. There are 50000 players queuing for matches every hour. Lets say, 26000 clans, 24000 IS. This means that every hour the clan queue grows by 2000 players. How long does it take to process a 2000 player backlog? Well there are 24000 IS available every hour so all things being equal that represents a 5 minute wait after an hour in a situation where the numbers are almost equal. Lets say it was 20,000 IS and 30,000 clans ... not too big a discrepancy ... however, the wait time after an hour is up to 30 minutes and IT ONLY GROWS. The situation is made worse when you have uneven numbers on each side since the queues then run at different rates for IS and clans. This simple math is one of the reasons why CW wait times can be long ... if the sides are perfectly matched queues for one or the other will grow indefinitely.

If you're talking about the public solo queue, the solution is very simple. The matchmaker forces IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, or IS vs. Clan fights, depending on player availability. That's not a difficult concept.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Except for a few IS mechs that got uberbuffs with specific weapons I still consider Clan mechs to be superior....No IS 65-70 tonner Outguns my Ebon Jaguars. None. 6 mediums with a gauss, 4 tons of ammo and 20 double heatinks. Thats nearly as much firepower as some IS assault mechs. And it goes 81KPH.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 03 February 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

No IS 65-70 tonner Outguns my Ebon Jaguars. None. 6 mediums with a gauss, 4 tons of ammo and 20 double heatinks. Thats nearly as much firepower as some IS assault mechs. And it goes 81KPH.

There is more to balance than raw firepower. A Quickdraw is typically run instead of the Ebjag, and it only runs 3 LPLs.

[Vonbach]

[color=#959595]
[/color]

Quote

[color=#959595]
Except for a few IS mechs that got uberbuffs with specific weapons I still consider Clan mechs to be superior....No IS 65-70 tonner Outguns my Ebon Jaguars. None. 6 mediums with a gauss, 4 tons of ammo and 20 double heatinks. Thats nearly as much firepower as some IS assault mechs. And it goes 81KPH. [/color]
[color=#959595]

• Like This

[/color]

This is why I've hated clan mechs from the very moment they came out.
If clam mechs were what they were in the lore no one would play anything else because it would be pointless.

Edited by Vonbach, 03 February 2016 - 02:45 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Vonbach, on 03 February 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

[/color]

This is why I've hated clan mechs from the very moment they came out.
If clam mechs were what they were in the lore no one would play anything else because it would be pointless.

I would still be Inner Sphere and note, I have bought every Clan pack this far (except Kodiak). If the grind is to be hard, I want it to be hard because of lore, not because someone wanted their precious playstyle elevated above all others.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Vonbach, on 03 February 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

[/color]

This is why I've hated clan mechs from the very moment they came out.
If clam mechs were what they were in the lore no one would play anything else because it would be pointless.

What I did not say is My Ebon is incredibly fragile and incredibly hot running. I still run IS mechs just as often as I run clan mechs, but I favor range and firepower. I like peekaboom and clan mechs can do that much better.

If i want to laserbarf, I run IS.

I I want a dakka mech. I run IS. Yes I consider Dakka crabs superior to Dakka whales. I have never gotten the UAC5 whale to work NEARLY as well as ANY dakka IS mech Ive driven. I still own all my original Dakka IS mechs except for the King crab because I could not deal with its Arm placement with the UAC5 build (still going to repurchase soon as ive practiced a bit)...I'm going to purchase a Mauler A La Carte soon as well...My third Invasion whale has been unequipped for months now since my other two run Dual gauss builds. I have nothing to stick on it.

If I want missiles. I'll USULALY run IS...my little Catapult C1 is still quite dangerous, and launches its LRMs all in one big cloud, usually netting me kills more often than the steam fired Clan LRMS

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 03 February 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Chados]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Here are some of the upcoming game changes later this month...

1. MASC buff (some IS mechs have it, but the Clan mechs that have it tend to benefit more, and the Exe is already viable as it is...)

2. Targeting Computer buffs (esp. heavier ones)

3. Removal of negative quirks from SCR and TBR (maybe DWF too?)

4. Supposedly some quirks for the "dog" Clan mechs

5. Nerfs to Inner Sphere range quirks on 72 different Inner Sphere chassis


No, the Clams are not "getting the shaft" this month, at all.

And then there was the Kodiak. A 100 tonner with the armament of two Atlases, the speed and agility of a Wolverine, and the armor of a Banshee. I shall know it forever as "The Mary Sue" of mechs.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Gyrok]

Mawai, on 03 February 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

LOL. The first problem with your "suggestion" is that is assumes that clans and IS would drop on different sides since that is the ONLY way any of your balancing suggestions would work. The problem with this is queue times. The number of players playing IS and the number of players playing clans are not equal. It only takes a small imbalance to get queues to increase indefinitely.

e.g. There are 50000 players queuing for matches every hour. Lets say, 26000 clans, 24000 IS. This means that every hour the clan queue grows by 2000 players. How long does it take to process a 2000 player backlog? Well there are 24000 IS available every hour so all things being equal that represents a 5 minute wait after an hour in a situation where the numbers are almost equal. Lets say it was 20,000 IS and 30,000 clans ... not too big a discrepancy ... however, the wait time after an hour is up to 30 minutes and IT ONLY GROWS. The situation is made worse when you have uneven numbers on each side since the queues then run at different rates for IS and clans. This simple math is one of the reasons why CW wait times can be long ... if the sides are perfectly matched queues for one or the other will grow indefinitely.

The one solution that could be applied is "Battlevalue" ... if it was possible to numerically define the relative capability of a mech and its build and weight that by another value representing pilot skill in that chassis then you could create two teams of uneven numbers of players with random mechs that MIGHT be balanced ... assuming the numerical scale is accurate, that the players play to their potential, and that no one makes a mistake. (The problem being that designing such a system is both challenging and inherently inaccurate .. probably enough to make it a bad metric for match balancing).

As for quirks, none of you seem to have read any of the notes from the townhall ..
1) IS range for large laser quirks will be limited to a maximum of 10%
2) Negative quirks on clan mechs will be removed
3) Underperforming clan mechs will be getting quirks.

I don't think there are ANY 50% quirks left anyway (except on a lolcust).. most of them were nerfed ages ago. In addition, some of the rate of fire complaints apply to one variant of one mech with one weapon. Folks are braindead if they base the entire balance of clan vs IS on one mech ... that doesn't even see that much use to be honest. I'd still take a Timberwolf and in some cases a Stormcrow over it.

Final anecdote, I was playing my Stormcrows on the weekend a bit ... and they were doing much better than most of my quirked IS mediums. C-LPL and C-ERML was just one build that was effective. The speed made it very easy to apply damage and seek cover or quickly take advantage of opponents who moved out of position. Overall balance is not as bad as the OP would seem to believe at least in my opinion.

Clan vs. Clan is 10v10, Clan vs IS is 10v12 and IS vs IS is 12v12.

Not hard to put together at all now is it?

[Mechteric]

Gyrok, on 03 February 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

Clan vs. Clan is 10v10, Clan vs IS is 10v12 and IS vs IS is 12v12.

Not hard to put together at all now is it?

Won't work in the pub queue

[CDLord HHGD]

CapperDeluxe, on 04 February 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Won't work in the pub queue

Here's how it would work:

Pure solo pug queue.
CW queue.

The group pug queue would be a free for all. But they already separate out the pure soloists anyways (else we could drop with groups of 11).

So yes, yes it would work.

[Dawnstealer]

There are a few, very specific, IS Chassis that are overquirked [so, for example, BJ-1 vs all Blackjacks]. The reason the IS mechs seem so powerful is because most IS players have figured out that playing anything other than those overquirked mechs in CW hurts the team and lessens the chance they'll win.

While lore-wise, a 75 ton Timberwolf would regularly take on an IS Assault mech and win, that's not real fun to play against. So quirks were introduced. The problem is that they shoehorned specific mechs into specific weapons and, of course, made clear winners and losers.

Have a Stalker 5M? Too bad - you should be running a 4N. Want to run that 4N with MLs or LRMs? Stupid: that's not what the quirks are set up for - you HAVE to run it with LLs or you're hurting your team. Want to run a Zeus? THAT mech? Nope.

A complaint I hear regularly, speaking of Stalkers, is that a Timber pilot will complain that the 4N is too powerful and they can't kill them fast enough. To put that in perspective, that's a pilot of a 75 ton mech complaining that an 85 ton can kill them, and that's usually a pretty even match. And that's kind of how it goes: IS mechs are about as powerful as Clan mechs that are ten tons lighter.