92 replies to this topic

[Red Shrike]

xXBagheeraXx, on 03 February 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

If I want a dakka mech. I run IS. Yes I consider Dakka crabs superior to Dakka whales.

I tried a dakka-ish custom build on my (L) crab once. I hated it and shortly thereafter went back to the stock build of 2xAC/20, 1xLLas and 1xLRM15. Two AC/20 shells are a lot more satisfying than a whole stream of AC/5 shells.

[Eider]

Clans are still better in every way that counts except maybe looks. Lets do a simple compare, xl engines. Do i need to get into this? IS ones blow up easy while clan ones can zombie. Lasers.. generally clan lasers are one step up from IS lasers due to range and extra damage. Yes more burn time but hardly a major factor when you also do more damage per tick. Lrms? spread vs straight line. Can make some arguments here but then Clan ones can be fired shorter range. Omnipods.. means you can boat whatever. GG. buff more?

[J0anna]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Here are some of the upcoming game changes later this month...

1. MASC buff (some IS mechs have it, but the Clan mechs that have it tend to benefit more, and the Exe is already viable as it is...)

Which CANNOT be removed are are simply a waste of space and tonnage atm.

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

2. Targeting Computer buffs (esp. heavier ones)

Which NOBODY uses since you need the weight for more heat sinks because clan heat sinks are CRAP, besides I've learned to never expect significant buffs to clan tech. Bet you will still rarely ever see them used above TC II.

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

3. Removal of negative quirks from SCR and TBR (maybe DWF too?)

Dire wolf is garbage, too slow and sluggish to be used except in specific circumstances. Removal of 'negative' quirks won't help the massive nerf to agility it got in December. You might not have noticed, but they are a huge liability on ANY team. Inferior to any stalker at any time....And who cares about the TWF or the SCR? What they are the only clan mechs we're supposed to use? All the rest are what, targets?

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

4. Supposedly some quirks for the "dog" Clan mechs

Yes, PGI has shown that they believe a 2.5% buff to MG ROF is a good buff for a clan mech. As I said before, I've learned to not expect significant buffs for clan mechs. Everyone bemoans the quirks on the vindicator, yet the shadow cat would die to have those acceleration/structure quirks.

Lets look:

VND-1SIB - Acc/dec +50%
Turn rate +25%
Yaw +10%
Armor Arms +14
Armor Legs +15

SHC - Prime - Acc/Dec +10%
Turn Rate +5%
Yaw +2.5%
Structure arms +7
Structure legs +7

Forget weapons quirks, I would like to see the 'poor' clan mechs get these quirks.....

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

5. Nerfs to Inner Sphere range quirks on 72 different Inner Sphere chassis

Yes because the IS ERLL should be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the clan ERLL on a number of these mechs (and those it isn't are getting a modest 5% nerf). Besides PGI may be replacing it with buffs to specific lasers. Besides none of them are losing their duration or heat reduction quirks.

If you don't think it is significantly easier leveling the new IS mechs compared to the IIc mechs, you aren't paying attention.

Edited by J0anna, 04 February 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[FupDup]

J0anna, on 04 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Which CANNOT be removed are are simply a waste of space and tonnage atm.

That could easily change with the buffs.

Also, TBH, I think that even with the current values that MASC works good on the Executioner. It does however certainly stink on the Shadow Cat...

J0anna, on 04 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Which NOBODY uses since you need the weight for more heat sinks because clan heat sinks are CRAP, besides I've learned to never expect significant buffs to clan tech. Bet you will still rarely ever see them used above TC II.

I can't really guess if this will change or not since we haven't even gotten teasers of what the new values will be. Failing all else, at least the TC1 will probably continue seeing use just as it does today...

J0anna, on 04 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Dire wolf is garbage, too slow and sluggish to be used except in specific circumstances. Removal of 'negative' quirks won't help the massive nerf to agility it got in December. You might not have noticed, but they are a huge liability on ANY team. Inferior to any stalker at any time....And who cares about the TWF or the SCR? What they are the only clan mechs we're supposed to use? All the rest are what, targets?

The Daishi's mobility weakness can be worked around if the team doesn't run off and abandon the Whales. Of course, this isn't a guarantee to happen in the Puglife queue or even the Premade queue sometimes... The point of the matter is that it still packs a crazy amount of firepower, and for quite a while it was the only Clan assault worth taking (and also used to outclass nearly all IS assaults until the various nerfs added up).

I'm not sure why you replied about the SCR/TBR in that way... Removing the negative quirks from those two mechs actually reduces the incentive to play mechs other than those two.

J0anna, on 04 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes, PGI has shown that they believe a 2.5% buff to MG ROF is a good buff for a clan mech. As I said before, I've learned to not expect significant buffs for clan mechs. Everyone bemoans the quirks on the vindicator, yet the shadow cat would die to have those acceleration/structure quirks.

Forget weapons quirks, I would like to see the 'poor' clan mechs get these quirks.....

Agreed on that, the sub-par Clan (and IS) mechs really do need more generous quickage.

J0anna, on 04 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes because the IS ERLL should be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the clan ERLL on a number of these mechs (and those it isn't are getting a modest 5% nerf). Besides PGI may be replacing it with buffs to specific lasers. Besides none of them are losing their duration or heat reduction quirks.

If PGI replaced it with medium/small specific buffs then I wouldn't complain so much, but as said above they don't always quirk mechs thoroughly...

------------

TL;DR: The point I'm making is that the Clans are getting a lot of balancing changes made to them both directly and indirectly this month. Will they be enough to make a difference? I don't know. Will they make the Clans OP again? I also don't know.

What I do know is that they will make the Clans at least a little bit better than they were before this month.

[Nightmare1]

Havoc SC, on 03 February 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

Why are clan mech's getting the shaft?

is this supposed to be balance or lore or what?

I dont understand why IS mechs can get up to a 50% fire rate quirk and so many other very high percent upgrades, and clan gets negatives sometimes. just look at the IIC that just came out. why dont clan mechs not have the same quirks? they dont have any.

some of the IS chassis are set up pretty good, but the clan varients are LOL. And switching Omni parts will hurt you because, your no hardpoint shoulder is the reason the cannon in your arm fires 3% faster... stupid.

the price for clan mechs is very high, SOME of them have upgrades, and if not.. you will never get them, but your gonna pay for it. why is clan not allowed to upgrade? it cannot be due to haveing omni. switching the arms just put a -8% laser cooldown on one... stupid.

I got 3 weeks in this game and the Unit i am in cannot explain to me why things are like this. everyone just says, dont play clan.

can anyone help?

It's simple:

1) PGI refuses to timeskip to allow for IS Omnis and Tech on par with the Clans

2) PGI believes in balancing every Mech with every other Mech, rather than on developing Mech and pilot roles

Add them together and it all equals broken Clans.

Sad Panda.

[Gas Guzzler]

627, on 03 February 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

getting the shaft... o_O

do we play the same game? Clan mechs are still superior if you look at the current meta builds, even with the nerfs. And don't start comparing a myst lynx with an overquirked IS mech, please.

That's not true currently. We will see what happens after Feb patch

[J0anna]

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Also, TBH, I think that even with the current values that MASC works good on the Executioner. It does however certainly stink on the Shadow Cat...

It's not that useful on the Executioner, it can be used for some maneuvers, but is very situational. Besides we're getting a bigger boost, but it only lasts 1/2 as long...some buff

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I can't really guess if this will change or not since we haven't even gotten teasers of what the new values will be. Failing all else, at least the TC1 will probably continue seeing use just as it does today...

Clan mechs need the weight for heat sinks far more than any PGI buff to lasers...What good is (lets be insane for a moment) a 200% increase in crit chance and 10x zoom, on lasers I have to wait twice as long to fire because I removed 7 heat sinks for a TC 7....And lets not forget PGI also announced the TC I was getting nerfed, so I suspect most people will be removing that.

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

The Daishi's mobility weakness can be worked around if the team doesn't run off and abandon the Whales. Of course, this isn't a guarantee to happen in the Puglife queue or even the Premade queue sometimes... The point of the matter is that it still packs a crazy amount of firepower, and for quite a while it was the only Clan assault worth taking (and also used to outclass nearly all IS assaults until the various nerfs added up).

However the nerfs piled on, and removing the negative weapons quirks will not help the agility nerf it has received in any way, shape, or form. Hell, keep the weapon nerfs, but allow the mech to turn like it used to. In the end it doesn't matter to me, it's just another mech in my hanger I'll never bother with. All clan assaults are, and will remain garbage until we see the blood asp, but by then it may well be too late.

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you replied about the SCR/TBR in that way... Removing the negative quirks from those two mechs actually reduces the incentive to play mechs other than those two.

Because those mechs are the exception, not the rule when it comes to clan mechs, and I don't want to be forced to bring ONLY those mechs to every drop if I want to have a positive effect on the match. I'm not saying every clan mech must be viable, but could we at least have a few more. Face it, if I drop in a shadow cat, and my opponent in a blackjack, I've effectively put my team down one mech, because against an equal opponent, I'll lose that match way more often than not.

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

If PGI replaced it with medium/small specific buffs then I wouldn't complain so much, but as said above they don't always quirk mechs thoroughly...

Agreed, the nerf is hitting some mechs that really don't deserve it, hell it would be fine if they just made the range buff only effect regular (not er) lasers....

FupDup, on 04 February 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

TL;DR: The point I'm making is that the Clans are getting a lot of balancing changes made to them both directly and indirectly this month. Will they be enough to make a difference? I don't know. Will they make the Clans OP again? I also don't know.

What I do know is that they will make the Clans at least a little bit better than they were before this month.

Yet the last major balance change was what 2 months ago? So we're to expect them to finally get it right this time? No, I expect them to think their last balance change was pretty much 'spot on' just that there were some outliers they didn't foresee (probably since we didn't test/give enough 'useful' feedback on the test server (i.e. it's really our fault not theirs)). They will fix the BJ, and nerf the IS ER lasers range 'mistake', as for the rest I envision 2% to 3% 'buffs' to the worst clan offenders. And maybe some larger buffs to flamer range or MG ROF.

[Sjorpha]

As a faction clans had the edge until Dec 1 patch, now for 2 months IS has had the same kind of slight edge that clans had until then.

The upcoming patch has significant buffs to clan and significant nerfs to IS, which may even it out or shift the edge back to clan depending on how important the range nerf turns out to be and how much the neg quirks on tbr, scr and dwf has been holding them back (since they are already tier 1 comp mechs it is clear they will be even more so, the question is how much)

Overall faction balance has been close for quite some time, as there has been tier 1 mechs to bring on both sides ever since the first significant quirk pass, it's been improving too.

The hyperbole and pipedreams about assymetric player numbers I can do without, at this point, as well as all the "throw away all your work and do it my perfect way!" type suggestions. It's about carefully tweaking what we have now that is the actual real deal you can help out with if you really wish to help.

[DovisKhan]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

IS still has its structure. Im not advocating that we get rid of that altogether (although i think there are far more elegant ways to balance) but whether the february patch really balances clan and IS or is just a bunch of superficial changes remains to be seen.

Are you kidding, structure is the only thing IS has that makes them at all comparable to Clans


Lighter ballistics

Lighter LRMs

Lighter lasers


At least lasers have ore heat


Now laser range


Small

200 + 25 (TC) + 20 (module) = 240 m for clans

135 + 13.5 (quirk) + 13.5 (module) = 162 m

3 vs 5 damage


Clan laser has 66% damage advantage and 50% range advantage, you can easily win a brawl with clan small lasers vs IS medium ones


The difference gets smaller with laser size, and gets ~ even with ERLL vs CERLL



Clans have better XL engines that don't cause them to die in 1 ST being dropped. Basically this means that the outgunned IS has to use STD engines to stay viable in a fight, meaning they're simply slower and carry less stuff.

[Frank Burns]

lol pls, I hope that my TBRs will be viable for a long time.
also roll in dark age, I wanna MadCat IV

[The Basilisk]

Havoc SC, on 03 February 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

Why are clan mech's getting the shaft?

is this supposed to be balance or lore or what?

I dont understand why IS mechs can get up to a 50% fire rate quirk and so many other very high percent upgrades, and clan gets negatives sometimes. just look at the IIC that just came out. why dont clan mechs not have the same quirks? they dont have any.

some of the IS chassis are set up pretty good, but the clan varients are LOL. And switching Omni parts will hurt you because, your no hardpoint shoulder is the reason the cannon in your arm fires 3% faster... stupid.

the price for clan mechs is very high, SOME of them have upgrades, and if not.. you will never get them, but your gonna pay for it. why is clan not allowed to upgrade? it cannot be due to haveing omni. switching the arms just put a -8% laser cooldown on one... stupid.

I got 3 weeks in this game and the Unit i am in cannot explain to me why things are like this. everyone just says, dont play clan.

can anyone help?

Very simple:
- lighter weapons
- smaler weapons
- much higher range
- higher damage per ton
- less vulnerability due to less vulnerable XLs
- changeable hardpoints ( omnipods )

To balance out things they invented the Quirk system and now they are fine tuning it.
So just be patient and work with the things you got at hand big boy
Even if FINE and PGI seem to be contradictory terms sometimes

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Late to the party, as usual... Oh, well. Here's my two cents.

It's not strictly true that Clans are getting the shaft.

They have some distinct advantages that make them still viable (in general, at least).

Foremost advantage is weapon weight. This definitely allows any Clan 'Mech to carry a greater weapons loadout than an IS 'Mech of the same weight.

The problem lies in the devaluation of Clan weapons due to IS durability over-Quirking.

Yes, some Clan 'Mechs get a few durability Quirks, but the vast majority sit on IS 'Mechs.

The reason is, very simply, isXL is too fragile (relative to cXL) to make it viable without compensation. On the other hand, the sheer weight of Std. engines prevents them from taking a viable weapons loadout (once again, relative to cXL); similarly necessitating some kind of compensation to improve its viability.

This is the single greatest disparity contributing to techline imbalance; even if not the end all.

There is no other truly effective solution to solve this problem except to make isXL function like cXL and shift those durability buffs that IS has now to (all) Std. engines so as to make all engine options viable and comparatively competitive.

This done, we will have normalized foundational balance and we can strip off all the arbitrary IS quirks and use Quirks to make each 'Mech's uniqueness more distinct and important.

We then can move on to other balance issues and see them more clearly (as durability disparities will no longer be in the mix and muddying the issue).

Until this is done each side (IS and Clan) will have reason to say the other is better! What we have now is really just two-way imbalance and one that is preventing important development in the game!

Quirks will never be a satisfying solution; as they are, by definition, arbitrary.

This solution is just so quick, simple and effective and can in no way harm the game balance or game play.

Can we at least test it!?

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 05 February 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

Another important thing to note while PGI attempt to balance quirks is that CW combat is much more refined than Puglandia. So ERLL quirks might be the shizz to keep you meta in CW but it's not going to be a great help in the anarchy of a skirmish brawl. I would presume it is hard to cater to perks/quirks for each market...