31 replies to this topic

[Darwins Dog]

Last night it was brought to the attention of the Golden Foxes that some faction(s) have chosen to let ghost drops defend their borders. They don't queue to defend planets until the attackers have taken at least 50% of the territory. This ensures an endless string of ghost drops for the attackers (half of which are hold territory) and generally means that the attackers leave to look for an actual fight.

Not here to complain about or call out any faction or group. It's a sensible thing to do, given the mechanics of CW. I'm just trying to start a discussion about the issue.

Is there currently anything to do about it? The options I can see are to either endure the ghost drops, or find a planet where people will fight.

Will CW 3.0 change anything? Granted, we don't know much about it yet, but do you think that the bits we do know will make a difference?

What are some possible solutions to "passive resistance" being a defense? I'm a bleeding-heart peace dove IRL, but I came here to fight.

I guess it's also worth asking if you even think this is a problem?

[Ratpoison]

Darwins Dog, on 03 February 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Last night it was brought to the attention of the Golden Foxes that some faction(s) have chosen to let ghost drops defend their borders. They don't queue to defend planets until the attackers have taken at least 50% of the territory. This ensures an endless string of ghost drops for the attackers (half of which are hold territory) and generally means that the attackers leave to look for an actual fight.

Not here to complain about or call out any faction or group. It's a sensible thing to do, given the mechanics of CW. I'm just trying to start a discussion about the issue.

Is there currently anything to do about it? The options I can see are to either endure the ghost drops, or find a planet where people will fight.

Will CW 3.0 change anything? Granted, we don't know much about it yet, but do you think that the bits we do know will make a difference?

What are some possible solutions to "passive resistance" being a defense? I'm a bleeding-heart peace dove IRL, but I came here to fight.

I guess it's also worth asking if you even think this is a problem?

They're going to be narrowing attack and defense options at any given time down considerably, so that should probably help. We'll have to wait for more details on it to know, though.

[nehebkau]

I have advocated for using the ghost-drop defense many times. It is an exploitable mechanic that will usually see units quit attacking after only a few drops.

dunno how many times I have gotten pissed off at this tactic when it was used against me, but it can be a viable way to defend if you don't have enough skilled players to actually help in defense.

[crustydog]

The Call To Arms works against this strategy. Because any player in the game can come to defend a planet, if you choose not to defend your own worlds, the attackers will soon be fighting only skittles. They are usually going to win these fights. As such, the idea of defending your worlds with only Ghost drops doesn't really work anymore.

Solo players will come to fight wherever there is a match to be found.

[Khereg]

We've seen it before in -MS-, although it's hard to tell if its coordinated inaction or just apathy towards defense. I wouldn't want to paint any faction with a broad brush without knowing more.

Ironically, all the stuff we preach about factions getting organized, using faction hub teamspeak, etc, could potentially lead to more of this. If a faction is disorganized and pugs answer the call to arms, then these ghost drops don't happen. If factions are coordinated and on comms together, then a plan to studiously ignore defense tickets could work.

And the tactic does work. I don't know too many units who will ghost drop a planet to victory. Even if you have the numbers, it's just mind-numbingly boring with very minimal rewards.

[Darwins Dog]

crustydog, on 03 February 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

The Call To Arms works against this strategy. Because any player in the game can come to defend a planet, if you choose not to defend your own worlds, the attackers will soon be fighting only skittles. They are usually going to win these fights. As such, the idea of defending your worlds with only Ghost drops doesn't really work anymore.

Solo players will come to fight wherever there is a match to be found.

I think it really depends on the size of the faction. With big factions that have lots of solo players you will get skittles on defense, but smaller factions may not have enough solo players to fill a team.

Not to mention that solo players will only accept so many call to arms before they get tired of getting rolled by 12 man teams.

tortuousGoddess, on 03 February 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

They're going to be narrowing attack and defense options at any given time down considerably, so that should probably help. We'll have to wait for more details on it to know, though.

My concern is that, even with fewer options, it will be a valid defense. If 6 full teams queue up on a planet, then they have to wait 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 minutes for fights that aren't happening.

There's also the issue of no more solo players with the queue split, so fewer chances to find a team that's not in on the plan.

Like you said, we'll have to wait and see there. Maybe PGI has a cunning plan.

[AnimeFreak40K]

I vaguely recall this being the "preferred method" of defense in CW way back after some adjustments were made to things after Tukayyid 1.

It could be argued that things have stayed the same, or even gotten worse since then with the Call To Arms mechanic and I could readily argue that it is the root cause of the current state of affairs in CW:
- Units are more interested in fast fights, so they get those on the attack (they fight vs. PUGs/Skittles)
- The PUGs/Skittles get roflestommped into oblivion.
- PUGs/Skittles complain about "always" fighting against coordinated units
- These complainers are told to "git gud" or "join a unit"
- They either don't change, give up on CW entirely...or they DO join a unit...which is primarily on the attack.

And so the cycle continues.

[Ratpoison]

Darwins Dog, on 03 February 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

I think it really depends on the size of the faction. With big factions that have lots of solo players you will get skittles on defense, but smaller factions may not have enough solo players to fill a team.

Not to mention that solo players will only accept so many call to arms before they get tired of getting rolled by 12 man teams.


My concern is that, even with fewer options, it will be a valid defense. If 6 full teams queue up on a planet, then they have to wait 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 minutes for fights that aren't happening.

There's also the issue of no more solo players with the queue split, so fewer chances to find a team that's not in on the plan.

Like you said, we'll have to wait and see there. Maybe PGI has a cunning plan.

I seem to recall Russ saying something about wanting to basically narrow each faction's forces into a single planet at a time, or close to that, to make the conflict more focused and interesting.

[Count Zero 74]

Ghost Drop defense doesn't work. Some PUGs always show up for the sealclubing.

[Jman5]

IMO, ghost drops should pick up pace

First ghost drop: 1 pip
Second ghost drop: 2 pips
Third ghost drop: 4 pips

etc...

When the defenders can finally muster 12 players, it resets back to 1 pip per ghost drop.

Edited by Jman5, 03 February 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[Darwins Dog]

What if the timer got shorter for every consecutive ghost drop? 10 minute wait for the first, then 1 minute less for each drop (maybe with a minimum of 3 minutes). Having at least one full team show up to defend resets the count, but if no one shows up to defend, then the attackers will at least be getting really fast 200000 cbill payouts.

Count Zero 74, on 03 February 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Ghost Drop defense doesn't work. Some PUGs always show up for the sealclubing.

It worked last night. We had 2 groups do 3 ghost drops each with no opposing teams (plus a third non-[FOX] group at one point). There may have been a few pugs showing up to defend, but it had to be fewer than 12. After that we broke up to do quick play and/or find a planet with a fight going on (one that was bordering a different faction iirc).

It really depends on the faction under attack. If they are small with mostly units in the population, they can coordinate ghost drop defense.

[sycocys]

Ghost drops are just stupid. If no one shows up to defend you should automatically lose 100% of your planet after the first one.

[Sandpit]

Darwins Dog, on 03 February 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Last night it was brought to the attention of the Golden Foxes that some faction(s) have chosen to let ghost drops defend their borders. They don't queue to defend planets until the attackers have taken at least 50% of the territory. This ensures an endless string of ghost drops for the attackers (half of which are hold territory) and generally means that the attackers leave to look for an actual fight.

Not here to complain about or call out any faction or group. It's a sensible thing to do, given the mechanics of CW. I'm just trying to start a discussion about the issue.

Is there currently anything to do about it? The options I can see are to either endure the ghost drops, or find a planet where people will fight.

Will CW 3.0 change anything? Granted, we don't know much about it yet, but do you think that the bits we do know will make a difference?

What are some possible solutions to "passive resistance" being a defense? I'm a bleeding-heart peace dove IRL, but I came here to fight.

I guess it's also worth asking if you even think this is a problem?

Based on the information we have?
No, it will not. There's nothing that Phase 3 offers that I've seen that will change this dynamic.

Reducing attack lanes will help, but the real problem is population. You get so many ghost drops because there simply aren't enough players.

Count Zero 74, on 03 February 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Ghost Drop defense doesn't work. Some PUGs always show up for the sealclubing.

Yes they do. Mariks are FORCED to ghost drop for HOURS at a time because they can't find a match.

[Wild Pegasus]

Sandpit, on 03 February 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yes they do. Mariks are FORCED to ghost drop for HOURS at a time because they can't find a match.

A lot of this seems to be because the Marik regulars are mostly active late evening to early morning, while everyone they border is active during regular daylight hours. At least that's what I noticed during my time there, we'd have all kinds of attack pushes going from 8 PM to 4AM, but anytime else it was either a one-off skirmish with Steiner or getting funneled into Clan defense by the C2A.

[Tasker]

This is nothing new. Marik started doing this when Kurita was curbstomping them back in February or March of last year.

[slide]

If skittles are turning up to defend, it can actually accelerate the fall of a planet to a good team, depending on whether the team wants the planet or wants to farm pugs.

Ghost drop = 15mins (approx, queue up, wait 10, load 2, kill omega or drop beacons 2, re queue)
Skittles =<10mins (queue, instant drop, load 2, zerg objective, requeue)
Pug Farm = <20mins

I expect to see more of the second game type once MC is available for planet ownership if un-organised units show up to defend in phase 3.

[Karl Marlow]

The clan border fights are different from is vs is or clan vs clan. Skittles always show up. When you are dealing with a single faction the ghost drop defense works. Especially after late 2. In phase 1 you could ghost drop a planet in a couple hours. Now it takes around 4 hours minimum.

Anything over 2 groups dropping is wasted as well. When all you see are ghost drops any team over 2 isn't saving time it's just rotating out the active team. When the Liao offensive started we attacked with 6 teams. Only 1 was really active at any given time which means you had 60 players twiddling their thumbs.

The ghost drop defense isn't going to get better with more focuelsed lanes. If, for example, Marik has no one attacking us and we only have the one attack lane. Of the defender never shows up you have no options. You basically can't play CW at that point.

[Karl Marlow]

In fact the more I think about it the worse it will be in phase 3.

The perfect defense vs groups dropping on your planet is to defend with 12 unitleelss solos. Its not hard to make ansmurf account. The pugs would retake territory as fast as the groups could take them. Skill would be irrelevant.

[Clownwarlord]

Actually to Tasker's point, I think every faction does this to a point. If you get online before prime time you will find some factions just not have people to defend at some of their borders and so they pick and choose which one to defend while they ignore and let ghost drops hopefully deter others away.

[pwnface]

clownwarlord, on 03 February 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Actually to Tasker's point, I think every faction does this to a point. If you get online before prime time you will find some factions just not have people to defend at some of their borders and so they pick and choose which one to defend while they ignore and let ghost drops hopefully deter others away.

Translation: Davion did this too after getting curbstomped by Kurita.