50 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

You mean like a certain bugged Quickdraw on the test server?

Maybe not that much.

[MoonUnitBeta]

My proposed changes to the narc....

• Narc is destroyed after [60] Streak or LRM damage, or when the narc expires, which would be [1-2] seconds shorter than it is now. <-- click to see my reasoning behind why I think we need this.
  
• Narc ammo increased to 10/ton.
  
• Narc ammo has been upgraded and now includes a seismic/motion detection module. (Yes! Missed narcs are not a total loss after all! )

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 February 2016 - 05:44 PM.

[Peenutts]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

A large part of the problem with NARC is that its completely useless if your team doesnt bring LRMs. Making NARC beacons explode for damage helps alleviate that problem somewhat by giving them a use even when your team doesnt have LRMs. Itd be about equivalent to an SRM4.

This is not true all. If your team does not have any heavy LRM using mechs the NARC still provides highly useful info as to where mechs are and how they are moving. In PUG play this is highly effective to telling people where to move and what not.
I will run a 3L raven that is a built scouting mech and I will just NARC several targets at a time even my team has no LRM heavy mechs, then inform my team of what I see from enemy movements.

[Big Tin Man]

NARC providing a 50-90m diameter UAV effect would make it VERY worthwhile. Hell, just making NARC win over ECM jeebuz box would be an improvement.

And ammo switching is something that PGI can't do. See also LBX10 slug vs. shell ammo.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Big Tin Man, on 04 February 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

NARC providing a 50-90m diameter UAV effect would make it VERY worthwhile. Hell, just making NARC win over ECM jeebuz box would be an improvement.

And ammo switching is something that PGI can't do. See also LBX10 slug vs. shell ammo.

UAV NARCs might actually make those things OP... as long as people on your team bring LRMs and actually target the targets that are spotted instead of some random locust behind a wall.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, we all know how well that worked for clan autocannons.

PGI was given a workaround. PGI's coding limitations dont allow one weapon use two different ammo types.

They can however have one weapon with two different fire modes that both use the same ammo type

We know for a fact the game supports toggle states on equipment like AMS. It can toggle between state 0 and state 1.

Theres no reason an LBX cant toggle between state 0 (lbx autocannon) and state 1 (standard autocannon) and just have both use the same ammo type. Yeah its not canon because they share one ammo type but its still better than nothing.

[sycocys]

People would actually use a ton of narc if it was a radar beacon - super bonus you could eliminate a consumable in the process.

[Applecrow]

How about have NARC remove the minimum range, at least for IS mechs. This would give it much more use for LRM mechs.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Applecrow, on 04 February 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

How about have NARC remove the minimum range, at least for IS mechs. This would give it much more use for LRM mechs.

To be honest I kinda wonder why the LRMs don't just fly up very high then dive bomb at very close ranges to counter act the minimum range...

something about balance I guess.

[wanderer]

NARC used to fall off with damage. This made it trash, and hence they simply gave it a duration.

Things you can do?

Add health and velocity. The first gives it more AMS resistance, the second does as well and increases it's accuracy.

Things you can't right now but should?

Give them the option for explosive ammo. Of course, this would take being able to switch munition types, something PGI utterly fails at given LB-X and the like.

[Pjwned]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Be pretty cool if NARC beacons didn't just get shot down by AMS, they are already hard enough to hit people with at long range, but if you even try and anyone in the area had a single AMS you are just wasting that one shot. The LRMs and SRMs don't quite have this problem since they fire in volleys and the SRMs have much faster travel times.

Just get in closer if your NARCs are being shot down, not like you need to stick around afterwards.

[LordNothing]

i would change 3 things:

ammo per ton (at least 15/ton, perhaps 18 or 20)
projectile velocity, increase it significantly
scoring. should get a bonus for revealing mechs. you should get extra points for narcing ecm mechs, narc damage from any weapon, not just lrms. one time rewards need to become every time rewards.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Pjwned, on 04 February 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:

Just get in closer if your NARCs are being shot down, not like you need to stick around afterwards.

I'm simply saying that if someone took the time and lined up a long range shot, especially with the travel time, it should be rewarded.

[Pjwned]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

I'm simply saying that if someone took the time and lined up a long range shot, especially with the travel time, it should be rewarded.

And I'm saying that if somebody has AMS it should shoot down missiles in the most favorable situation possible for shooting down missiles.

[DonGardenio]

NARC will probably get a bit more use if there was some pregame lobby for mech selection and multiple loadouts per mech. Then you can quickly ask if your team got LRMs or not before taking a NARC build.

[Fiona Marshe]

NARC ammo is already doubled (original is 6/ton).

If your team learns how to read the map when NARC is in play, it is a powerful force booster. Not counting the LRM "shoot me" attractor, direct fire players can use it to optimise there attack angles while out of sight.

I run one on the BlacWidow, and it makes a big difference to coordination.

Edited by Fiona Marshe, 05 February 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[Ratpoison]

For lights it really is too heavy. It only works out if the mech can function on 5 tons of weapons or so. I have a couple narc lights, but over time I've found the best current use of narc isn't on a light at all. My personal favorite:



That's right, get that NARC right up there on top of your LRMs. Don't be scared, now.

I've been experimenting a lot with these things and this seems to be the most effective way to use it right now. Instead of asking a light to neuter their damage for me, I toss the NARC on myself since 4 tons isn't much to me, and use the tonnage I didn't spend on a fourth LRM15+A in order to buff up my secondary weapon system, which is two large lasers in the arm with solid quirks. The other main reason is that 4 LRM15+A's is needlessly excessive, especially on the AWS-8R, which gets 30% cooldown reduction on them, meaning that 3 LRM15's will generate as much damage and heat as 3.9 unquirked LRM15's(4.26 with module).

I wish more people would try this. Tag+Artemis means I get a 75% buff to lock time and tracking strength on enemies within line of sight(just 50% past 750m though), while my secondary lasers let me get close enough to NARC, which then lets me back off out of line of sight while still pummeling them with a 50% buff to locking and tracking(thanks for the clarification Mad Porthos). It's very effective and encourages you to stay just behind the front line, where you can contribute laser damage and hunt for locks.

Overboating LRMs makes your mech a paperweight in most situations, so don't do it please.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 05 February 2016 - 02:40 AM.

[Mad Porthos]

tortuousGoddess, on 05 February 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

I wish more people would try this. Tag+Artemis means I get a 75% buff to lock time and tracking strength on enemies within line of sight(just 50% past 750m though), while my secondary lasers let me get close enough to NARC, which then lets me back off out of line of sight while still pummeling them with a 50% buff to locking and tracking. It's very effective and encourages you to stay just behind the front line, where you can contribute laser damage and hunt for locks.

Hey Tortuous, not to detract from NARC, which is still useful to Artemis for giving you consistent locks even when your foes break line of sight, but unfortunately the NARC tracking bonus is denied to Artemis Equipped LRMS as regards tracking and lock speed. The additive aspects of the aiming tech available is such that ARTEMIS+TAG stack and TAG+NARC stack, but on an ARTEMIS system the ARTEMIS tracking bonus is either there or it is not - so when you actually lose line of sight and thus the ARTEMIS tracking bonus, NARCs tracking bonus does not kick in just because the Artemis bonus is gone - though the TAG bonus should still be there like if the TAG is being done by someone at a different angle, still successfully. It's been gone over a lot on these forums and in DEV posts and the few times I've cornered actual devs in live chats, or games they've confirmed this.

It's been supported by private lobby testing as well, where our Artemis LRMS really should have been doing work on a test NARCed player in the (red) team, but the broken line of sight on the ARTEMIS was enough that tracking really visibly deteriorated, where before missiles actually correcting trajectory and making tight turns after passing over a wall, when a little bit of the NARCed mech was showing (thus Artemis was active), as soon as the mech fully was backed out of site (and thus it was now NARC+TAG lock only) the missiles could not do this tight turn and would hit the top edge of the wall or at an angle behind the mech who was NARCed and pressed tight to the cover. I would believe that if NARC was still giving it's 50% better tracking/lock time at this point when working WITH TAG, those missiles would still have corrected after passing over the cover and in fact, when later testing in the same location using a missile mech mounting only LRM 15, rather than LRM15+Artemis, the tracking seemed intact and better on the NARCed mech, properly making an angle over the cover and correcting last minute to catch this NARCed target with missiles. While some finesse may have been involved on the firing missile boat, in having the narc lock, firing the missiles, breaking lock so they took a high arc, then restoring lock so they dived on the mech - I really think from what we saw, that it supported this assertion about Narc not playing well with Artemis - as stated in past DEV posts still searchable on the forums.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 05 February 2016 - 02:14 AM.

[Ratpoison]

Mad Porthos, on 05 February 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Hey Tortuous, not to detract from NARC, which is still useful to Artemis for giving you consistent locks even when your foes break line of sight, but unfortunately the NARC tracking bonus is denied to Artemis Equipped LRMS as regards tracking and lock speed. The additive aspects of the aiming tech available is such that ARTEMIS+TAG stack and TAG+NARC stack, but on an ARTEMIS system the ARTEMIS tracking bonus is either there or it is not - so when you actually lose line of sight and thus the ARTEMIS tracking bonus, NARCs tracking bonus does not kick in just because the Artemis bonus is gone - though the TAG bonus should still be there like if the TAG is being done by someone at a different angle, still successfully. It's been gone over a lot on these forums and in DEV posts and the few times I've cornered actual devs in live chats, or games they've confirmed this.

It's been supported by private lobby testing as well, where our Artemis LRMS really should have been doing work on a test NARCed player in the (red) team, but the broken line of sight on the ARTEMIS was enough that tracking really visibly deteriorated, where before missiles actually correcting trajectory and making tight turns after passing over a wall, when a little bit of the NARCed mech was showing (thus Artemis was active), as soon as the mech fully was backed out of site (and thus it was now NARC+TAG lock only) the missiles could not do this tight turn and would hit the top edge of the wall or at an angle behind the mech who was NARCed and pressed tight to the cover. I would believe that if NARC was still giving it's 50% better tracking/lock time at this point when working WITH TAG, those missiles would still have corrected after passing over the cover and in fact, when later testing in the same location using a missile mech mounting only LRM 15, rather than LRM15+Artemis, the tracking seemed intact and better on the NARCed mech, properly making an angle over the cover and correcting last minute to catch this NARCed target with missiles. While some finesse may have been involved on the firing missile boat, in having the narc lock, firing the missiles, breaking lock so they took a high arc, then restoring lock so they dived on the mech - I really think from what we saw, that it supported this assertion about Narc not playing well with Artemis - as stated in past DEV posts still searchable on the forums.

Ah, thank you very much for this, I had long heard about it but couldn't get absolute confirmation as a solo player, and the search function on this forum is awful enough that I didn't find an answer.

But I am actually glad you brought this up, because the most interesting thing I've observed about running a NARC on an LRM mech, is that the locking and tracking buffs make up maybe about 5% of the system's usefulness. The locking bonus is mostly pointless, since you'll probably get a full lock when NARCing your target, and even if you move somewhere else, no return fire means that there's no pressure requiring a faster lock. The tracking bonus has a usefulness that's relative to the mobility of the target; the faster the mech, the more you need it to land your damage. However, the NARC is more effective the slower the target is, because the missile is not only easier to land, but it takes the target longer to reach cover as well.

So even knowing that having Artemis negates the locking and tracking buffs of my NARC, I'm still hesitant to take either off, as they both seem to serve unique purposes. Artemis+Tag reduces my missile spread, allows me to counter light ECM with line of sight, and grants me strong buffs to locking and tracking targets in line of sight. NARC allows me to turn off heavier mech's ECM for 30+ seconds, move to an optimal position that does not have line of sight, and chainfire LRM15's onto my opponent risk free until they die or run to cover.

They're very different tools that let you do very different things, I think taking advantage of what all of them give you, while not sacrificing a solid secondary weapon system, brings out some of the real potential of LRMs.

[Curccu]

Khobai, on 04 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

I personally think NARC beacons should explode for 6-8 damage when their duration expires. Or maybe just have a toggle that makes NARC beacons explode on impact instead of sticking to the target.

Battletech has explosive NARC beacons, draconis combine uses them, so its not far-fetched to combine the regular NARC beacon with the explosive NARC beacon.

A large part of the problem with NARC is that its completely useless if your team doesnt bring LRMs. Making NARC beacons explode for damage helps alleviate that problem somewhat by giving them a use even when your team doesnt have LRMs. Itd be about equivalent to an SRM4.

Now would those stack? I mean... take This and then poptart alpha it with zero heat enemys face, hide for the cooldown, repeat... few times and at this point enemy has like 12? 18? or even 24 narc beacons attached to it's face... and soon those start exploding with 6-8 damage each... which is ~42 damage for 6-pack of them.