68 replies to this topic

[ZeroKelvin]

Actually, the medium lasers are the most OP since the combination of 2x range and quirks pushes them into medium to long range territory (400m-600m +)

[Duke Nedo]

FupDup, on 06 February 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

The funny thing about recoil is that it actually has zero effect on alpha strikes. Recoil happens AFTER a weapon has been fired, which means that recoil only affects rapid-fire dakka/suppression builds. Large, single-shot alpha strikes don't feel it at all.

And of course, lasers don't even have recoil (because physics) and they're the largest culprit of high-damage alphas...

I have to say I am for recoil as a mechanism to reduce the accuracy of Lasers being fired simultaneously with Ballistics (who deals the recoil). If you have to wait with the laser until the small recoil has stabilized, say 0.2 secs or so, it will effectively spread damage a bit without overdoing it.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 07 February 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[Wolfways]

Laser vomit = using the most common mech weapons in BT?

[MauttyKoray]

Wolfways, on 07 February 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

Laser vomit = using the most common mech weapons in BT?

Yeah...people cry about laser vomit, but that was pretty standard in BT supplemented with some missiles and ballistics however those were restricted by ammo usage and tonnage.

The difference being there wasn't so much alpha-vomit because heat scale and cooking yourself inside the cockpit is a thing in Battletech.

[FupDup]

Duke Nedo, on 07 February 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

I have to say I am for recoil as a mechanism to reduce the accuracy of Lasers being fired simultaneously with Ballistics (who deals the recoil). If you have to wait with the laser until the small recoil has stabilized, say 0.2 secs or so, it will effectively spread damage a bit without overdoing it.

But this raises the question of, why are we targeting builds that use a mixture of weapon families (ballistics + energy) instead of ones that go purely one way or the other? Aren't "mixed loadouts" one of those things that at least half of the forum clamors for?

Edited by FupDup, 07 February 2016 - 06:15 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

But this raises the question of, why are we targeting builds that use a mixture of weapon families (ballistics + energy) instead of ones that go purely one way or the other? Aren't "mixed loadouts" one of those things that at least half of the forum clamors for?

Isn't all energy builds supposed to be kept in check by heat? Oh wait.... :-)

[FupDup]

Duke Nedo, on 07 February 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Isn't all energy builds supposed to be kept in check by heat? Oh wait.... :-)

They are to an extent, depending on just how many pewpews you have...there are some energy builds that have decent sustainability, and of course others like the Nova Prime that are walking ovens.

Regardless, the majority of forum complaints about ze meta are about laser vomit, not mixed lasers + ballistics.

Edited by FupDup, 07 February 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

They are to an extent, depending on just how many pewpews you have...there are some energy builds that have decent sustainability, and of course others like the Nova Prime that are walking ovens.

Regardless, the majority of forum complaints about ze meta are about laser vomit, not mixed lasers + ballistics.

Yeah, I do agree... on a serious note though, if they were to do a more proper job with the heat scale and the whole heat system to actually put some more limits on pure lasor builds, then some other mechanism needs to complement it in order not to make Gauss-vomit flat out better. It's difficult to address Gauss-vomit with heat without completely breaking pure E builds (which some variants must use since they only have E hardpoints).

We've had lots of these discussions and I always advocate a mixed solution, like heat, recoil and some mild convergence-effect together. Heat alone is a blunt tool when Damage per Heat ranges from 15 to ~1 for various weapons...

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 06 February 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

The funny thing about recoil is that it actually has zero effect on alpha strikes. Recoil happens AFTER a weapon has been fired, which means that recoil only affects rapid-fire dakka/suppression builds. Large, single-shot alpha strikes don't feel it at all.

And of course, lasers don't even have recoil (because physics) and they're the largest culprit of high-damage alphas...

Is that the reason why we should never add recoil to ballistic weapons? THere always seems to be some reason why we can never deviate from the PPFLD Laser vomit meta. Ofc, mainly because I think PGI plays it and likes it...

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 07 February 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Is that the reason why we should never add recoil to ballistic weapons? THere always seems to be some reason why we can never deviate from the PPFLD Laser vomit meta. Ofc, mainly because I think PGI plays it and likes it...

I think you might want to re-read what I wrote.

Recoil doesn't affect the laser vomit meta because lasers don't generate recoil to begin with. As for PPFLD, that's not even the meta right now. Right now it's DoT weapons except for Gauss, which gets mixed with lasers anyways.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MauttyKoray, on 07 February 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

Yeah...people cry about laser vomit, but that was pretty standard in BT supplemented with some missiles and ballistics however those were restricted by ammo usage and tonnage.

The difference being there wasn't so much alpha-vomit because heat scale and cooking yourself inside the cockpit is a thing in Battletech.

Wolfways, on 07 February 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

Laser vomit = using the most common mech weapons in BT?

Except in BT they didnt "Vomit" their lasers. There would be some serious penalties to firing 8 ML all at once, not the least of which would be shutting down your mech in the middle of a battlefield, where if BT was to advance to RL, there wouldnt be any respawning. The targeting computers had to adjust for the range and all that on the mech to target, there would have been some sort of aim time. Lasers are the most common weapon due to logistic issues, no ammo and the like, but "Vomit" is not how they do it. Rapid or chain fire maybe, and alphas only as a last resort.

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

I think you might want to re-read what I wrote.

Recoil doesn't affect the laser vomit meta because lasers don't generate recoil to begin with. As for PPFLD, that's not even the meta right now. Right now it's DoT weapons except for Gauss, which gets mixed with lasers anyways.

Right, I read you mention recoil doesnt affect lasers. So, the way PGI should do it is higher heat penalties on the heat scale, which limits lasers, and for those who think "cannon meta", recoil for the cannons to make firing them endlessly a little more tricky. At the end of the day, it all leads to less 50 points per second from each mech on the field.

This game's players are so caught up in the meta its actually pretty crazy....ive never seen a game so caught up in a meta....we went from JJ/PPC/AC to Gauss/JJ to laser vomit to w/e the "best" happens to be atm.

I have seen games chase the meta, but this game is crazy about it.

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 07 February 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Except in BT they didnt "Vomit" their lasers. There would be some serious penalties to firing 8 ML all at once, not the least of which would be shutting down your mech in the middle of a battlefield, where if BT was to advance to RL, there wouldnt be any respawning. The targeting computers had to adjust for the range and all that on the mech to target, there would have been some sort of aim time. Lasers are the most common weapon due to logistic issues, no ammo and the like, but "Vomit" is not how they do it. Rapid or chain fire maybe, and alphas only as a last resort.

Whether or not you had "serious penalties" in TT really depended on the build in question.


For 8 Medium Lasers, that generates 24 heat by TT standards.

For reference, the first heat penalty of -1 movement points kicks in when you generate 5 points of excess heat.

If a mech carried a minimum 20 Single Heatsinks or 10 Double Heatsinks in TT, it could fire all 8 ML at least one time without suffering a heat penalty. In this case, it generates 4 points of net heat, which puts it just low enough to not trigger the lowest penalty.

If it equipped 24 SHS or 12 DHS, it could fire all 8 ML every turn for the rest of the match without ever having a penalty.

Edited by FupDup, 07 February 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Whether or not you had "serious penalties" in TT really depended on the build in question.


For 8 Medium Lasers, that generates 24 heat by TT standards.

For reference, the first heat penalty of -1 movement points kicks in when you generate 5 points of excess heat.

If a mech carried a minimum 20 Single Heatsinks or 10 Double Heatsinks in TT, it could fire all 8 ML at least one time without suffering a heat penalty. In this case, it generates 4 points of net heat, which puts it just low enough to not trigger the lowest penalty.

If it equipped 24 SHS or 12 DHS, it could fire all 8 ML every turn for the rest of the match without ever having a penalty.

That is why the WHK prime was beast mode in TT...fire 2-3 CERPPCs per round pretty much indefinitely.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 07 February 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

That is why the WHK prime was beast mode in TT...fire 2-3 CERPPCs per round pretty much indefinitely.

Yeah, but it did have that fourth ERPPC that would push the heat too high.

That's why I think the Warhawk-C was the king of the WHK family, because it could use its 2 LPL + 2 ERPPC constantly.

Edited by FupDup, 07 February 2016 - 10:38 AM.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yeah, but it did have that fourth ERPPC that would push the heat too high.

That's why I think the Warhawk-C was the king of the WHK family, because it could its 2 LPL + 2 ERPPC constantly.

Yeah, only use the 4th after a round of 1 or 2, and even then...whatever you were shooting have better needed to die NOW!

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 07 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Whether or not you had "serious penalties" in TT really depended on the build in question.

For 8 Medium Lasers, that generates 24 heat by TT standards.

For reference, the first heat penalty of -1 movement points kicks in when you generate 5 points of excess heat.

If a mech carried a minimum 20 Single Heatsinks or 10 Double Heatsinks in TT, it could fire all 8 ML at least one time without suffering a heat penalty. In this case, it generates 4 points of net heat, which puts it just low enough to not trigger the lowest penalty.

If it equipped 24 SHS or 12 DHS, it could fire all 8 ML every turn for the rest of the match without ever having a penalty.

For those Players with even a modicum of Trigger control, there are Mechs in MWO that can carry 8 ML's and sufficient DHS's that allow them to Fire ALL 8 pretty much whenever they want. As they say, "Just because you can fire, the current CD is up, doesn't mean you have to!"

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 February 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why would a hundred pound AC20 shell hit like a freight train at 270m but harmlessly bounce off at 270.01?

um 270m is the canon long range for an AC20 shell. 90m is the short range. So at 270m the AC/20 shell has already slowed down A LOT. And how do you think kinetic penetration works in real life? Either you have the force penetrate armor or you dont... and if you dont you harmlessly bounce off.

I agree the x2 and x3 max ranges on weapons needs to be looked at because it really screws up weapon balance especially for LRMs. LRMs are supposed to have the same effective max range as gauss/erppcs. But in MWO youre lucky if LRMs can hit anything past 600m which is medium range.

At the very least weapons should not be able to do damage past their optimum range without a sensor lock. That would make sensor locks actually matter.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Sable]

i'd rather see max range be x1.25 of optimal so some fallout as the beam overfocus effect tapers off

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 07 February 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

um 270m is the canon long range for an AC20 shell. 90m is the short range. So at 270m the AC/20 shell has already slowed down A LOT. And how do you think kinetic penetration works in real life? Either you have the force penetrate armor or you dont... and if you dont you harmlessly bounce off.

An AC20 shell exits the muzzle at 650 m/s. You're telling me that in less than half a second of flight the shell would have slowed enough to be completely harmless? Do they stick a goddamn drogue chute on the back of these things?

Also, where does it say AC20 shells are kinetic energy penetrators? A kinetic energy penetrator with a lower muzzle velocity than the average infantryman's rifle seems pretty dumb.

[Gyrok]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 February 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

An AC20 shell exits the muzzle at 650 m/s. You're telling me that in less than half a second of flight the shell would have slowed enough to be completely harmless? Do they stick a goddamn drogue chute on the back of these things?

Also, where does it say AC20 shells are kinetic energy penetrators? A kinetic energy penetrator with a lower muzzle velocity than the average infantryman's rifle seems pretty dumb.

Oohhh! A fellow ballistics nut!

Yeah...your average Kinetic Penetrator is typically going to have muzzle velocity in excess of 4,000 fps. Those tend to be the smaller side of them as well...the bunker buster type stuff is usually closer to 6500-7000 fps, and that is toting something like a solid penetrator head weighing multiple tons...

As far as the AC20, the equivalent weapon in the modern military would likely be something akin to the 155 howitzer (though honestly some descriptions make this sound more like a 203-210mm Naval gun...). Either way, modern artillery of that size typically has an effective range (read: can be put within a 100m square grid range) in the neighborhood of ~10-15 miles depending on type of projectile, etc. I would expect ACs in battle tech would basically be standard ordinance. Not KP, AP, or HE, just plain old APICM or DPICM.