24 replies to this topic

[Chaldon]

I did the math on 3 LRM hard points trying to achieve best DPS in a mech with limited tonage.

10 LRM + 10 LRM + 10
2.5x3= 7.5 DPS

10 LRM +10 LRM + 5 LRM
2.5+2.5+1.54= 6.54 DPS

5 LRM +5 LRM + 15 LRM
1.54+1.54+3.16= 6.2 DPS

20 LRM + 5 LRM
3.64+1.54= 5.18 DPS

Thought I'd share and see if somebody catches bad math... I hope not.
Note the first option is a LRM 30 not a LRM 25 option.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Chaldon, on 07 February 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

I did the math on 3 LRM hard points trying to achieve best DPS in a mech with limited tonage.

10 LRM + 10 LRM + 10
2.5x3= 7.5 DPS

10 LRM +10 LRM + 5 LRM
2.5+2.5+1.54= 6.54 DPS

5 LRM +5 LRM + 15 LRM
1.54+1.54+3.16= 6.2 DPS

20 LRM + 5 LRM
3.64+1.54= 5.18 DPS

Thought I'd share and see if somebody catches bad math... I hope not.
Note the first option is a LRM 30 not a LRM 25 option.

Whats the tonnage limit and how many slots do you have for LRMs?

Also its worth noting that the higher up LRM launchers will put out more damage in general, but the lower ones put more damage in places that matter more

[Spheroid]

Really not this simple. You must weigh damage vs. heat and spread. Also the LRM10 is not weight efficient so you must consider any advantages it has against the opportunity cost of more ammo.

Further complications are chassis specific quirks, tube count and effects of AMS on applied damage.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 February 2016 - 12:37 AM.

[Chaldon]

My math was for simple damage per second. Trying to keep it simple for use across the mechbay.
Other things like a specific mech, weapon placement, quirks, etc are not included.

For disclosures sake: Again, 3 hardpoints. My limitations on the math above was max 23.5 tons & 9 critical slots available. A side torso with a XL engine. Match ammo required.
(Personal necessity of Artemis and ammo reduced my available combos. The LRM 35 & 40 combos pulled too much weight from ammo...)

I'm not bringing up modules because I don't own a particular module yet- so I posted only simple stats. Pre-module stats.

The LRM10 is not weight efficient but it has its place.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Chaldon, on 07 February 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

My math was for simple damage per second. Trying to keep it simple for use across the mechbay.
Other things like a specific mech, weapon placement, quirks, etc are not included.

For disclosures sake: Again, 3 hardpoints. My limitations on the math above was max 23.5 tons & 9 critical slots available. A side torso with a XL engine. Match ammo required.
(Personal necessity of Artemis and ammo reduced my available combos. The LRM 35 & 40 combos pulled too much weight from ammo...)

I'm not bringing up modules because I don't own a particular module yet- so I posted only simple stats. Pre-module stats.

The LRM10 is not weight efficient but it has its place.

Based on the XL engine size this is an IS mech. You are also using artemis.

With 23.5 tons as the max I'll come up with some values for how heavy each combo is.


3x ALRM10 is 18 tons leaving 5.5 tons for ammo.
7.50 DPS, 990 total ammo

2x ALRM10 + ALRM5 is 15 tons leaving 8.5 tons for ammo
6.54 DPS, 1530 total ammo

2x ARLM5 + ALRM15 is 14 tons leaving 9.5 tons for ammo
6.2 DPS, 1710 total ammo

ALRM20 + ALRM5 is 14 tons leaving 9.5 tons for ammo
5.18 DPS, 1710 total ammo

Personally I'd have just gone with triple LRM10s which would leave 8.5 tons for ammo. Since you really want to keep that artemis though I'd pick the second options since it has the least spread out of any of the missile systems you picked, second highest DPS, and decent ammo levels for a match.

Of course, this is an IS mech though, so quirks should be consulted.

Edited by Dakota1000, 07 February 2016 - 01:54 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

What mech it is DOES matter. My LRM60 Atlas for instance, doesn't shoot 4x15 LRMs, because of tube limitations it shoots a volley of LRM10 followed by 10 more LRM5 in cycle.

[Yosharian]

MauttyKoray, on 07 February 2016 - 02:19 AM, said:

My LRM60 Atlas for instance

Edited by Yosharian, 07 February 2016 - 04:05 AM.

[Wolfways]

- ECM = 0 DPS

[Satan n stuff]

Spheroid, on 07 February 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

Really not this simple. You must weigh damage vs. heat and spread. Also the LRM10 is not weight efficient so you must consider any advantages it has against the opportunity cost of more ammo.

Further complications are chassis specific quirks, tube count and effects of AMS on applied damage.

The LRM10 is plenty weight efficient if you're using Artemis and you can't really expect to do much with just 3 LRM5s.

Inner Sphere standard guidance:

• LRM5 2 tons, 2.5 missiles per ton
  
• LRM10 5 tons, 2 mpt
  
• LRM15 7 tons, 2.14 mpt
  
• LRM20 10 tons 2 mpt

Inner Sphere Artemis IV:

• LRM5 3 tons, 1.67 mpt
  
• LRM10 6 tons, 1.67 mpt
  
• LRM15 8 tons, 1.88 mpt
  
• LRM20 11 tons, 1.82 mpt

Clan standard guidance:

• LRM5 1 ton, 5 mpt
  
• LRM10 2.5 tons, 4 mpt
  
• LRM15 3.5 tons, 4.29 mpt
  
• LRM20 5 tons 4 mpt

Clan Artemis IV:

• LRM5 2 tons, 2.5 mpt
  
• LRM10 3.5 tons, 2.86 mpt
  
• LRM15 4.5 tons, 3.33 mpt
  
• LRM20 6 tons, 3.33 mpt

Since LRM10s have a significantly better grouping than LRM15s and especially LRM20s and are considerably more heat efficient than LRM5s, they are the superior launcher for a large number of LRM builds.

[MauttyKoray]

Yosharian, on 07 February 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

Your picture is broken, and yes a LRM60 Atlas, it also has 4 medium lasers. Its great.

[Kilo 40]

x3 LRM10s on my shadow cat works very well.

[Kilo 40]

Satan n stuff, on 07 February 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

Since LRM10s have a significantly better grouping than LRM15s and especially LRM20s and are considerably more heat efficient than LRM5s, they are the superior launcher for a large number of LRM builds.

10s are only more heat efficient than 5s when fired at the same time. chain fired(as the should be 90% of the time) LRM5s are still vastly superior. at least when you have 4 or more hard points.

[Satan n stuff]

Kilo 40, on 07 February 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

10s are only more heat efficient than 5s when fired at the same time. chain fired(as the should be 90% of the time) LRM5s are still vastly superior. at least when you have 4 or more hard points.

You're still going to want to add 10s whenever possible because there is a huge difference in DPS. Also you can actually get the Artemis tracking bonus without paying a premium in tonnage with 10s, they're the lightest and therefore most accurate launchers that are acceptably weight efficient with Artemis. IS LRM5s weigh 50% more with Artemis and Clan LRM5s weigh double with Artemis which is why you rarely see them.
In general the best way to go about building for LRM chainfire is to get the highest tube count you can reasonably fit with the most launchers while keeping your launcher sizes as consistent as possible. Sometimes this means LRM5s, sometimes it's LRM10s and some mechs even use LRM15s. In many cases it's two different sizes. You're not really after the alpha when you build like that, but the bigger launchers do have significantly higher DPS. It is possible however to build with LRM5s and 10s and get a fairly accurate alpha without ghost heat, at 35 points with a grouping that mostly hits CT.

[TercieI]

ASRM18.

[Chaldon]

I only posted the math because I haven't found an easy chart, aside from scrolling way down smurphys web-side equipment chart, for LRM boating.

In my CN9-AH I'm going with LRM 15,10,5 w/ 9.5 Tons ammo.(edit. Artimis removed.) The 5 gets it's own trigger for disruption. I could scale up to 15,10,10 but lose ammo and nixed that option.

In the beginning I had fun with the SRM 6 + 3MGs but I wasn't amazed. Neither with the AC2 options. For kicks I tried LRMs in pug matches and I'm quite disruptive w/ ~500 damage and a high win count.

For me, stats and numbers might be a starting point but in the end it's what gives the most fun performance.

Edited by Chaldon, 07 February 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[wanderer]

Yeah. Raw DPS isn't as easy a measure when it comes to LRMs, because spread and scatter actually tends to make larger launchers lose damage as you add tubes. LRM20's are especially bad for this, which is why most builds won't go past 15's.

Also, chain fire is not always best fire. Given limited lock time, a chained salvo can end up with one launcher hitting, one partially hitting as you lose lock, and a third whiffing entirely, wasting ammo and potential damage. The only good reasons to chainfire is heat load (4xLRM15, for example) or shaking the target (multiple LRM5's). Of course, some Mechs can effectively stream fire with larger launchers, like the Atlas-RS or Cataphract-2x.

[Spheroid]

If you are serious about lurming in mediums you should stop trying to use the AH outside its intended role of AC-20 carrier. The Trebuchet and Hunchback-4J are both better. Plus Hunchbacks are super cheap so you have no excuse.

Also the AH has no energy hardpoints which prevents installing TAG.

Edited by Spheroid, 07 February 2016 - 10:28 PM.

[wanderer]

You can, however install NARC and a pair of launchers and have some fun. AH's both get a 15% cooldown and 10% velocity bonus, making them respectively accurate and fast-firing. The Hunchback-4J is still the king of medium LRM lobbers, but the AH is better than many.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9ec6c36acbf6f4

[Monkey Lover]

Dont use anything over lrm 10 dps doesnt matter when most the lrms dont hit.

[Sandpit]

Chaldon, on 07 February 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

The LRM10 is not weight efficient but it has its place.

especially if you want to boat LRMs on a chassis but still have enough weight to add a decent secondary weapon system. The 10 isn't the most "efficient" lurm launcher, but it can be used quite effectively and will perform well in both heat and damage output.
It's also much more efficient on ammo usage many times.
1 ton ammo = 180 rounds
That's 18 volleys for an LRM 10 making for more sustainable suppression fire, etc.

10 tons of ammo = 1800 rounds
3 LRM 20 = 30 volleys
3 LRM 15 = 40 volleys
3 LRM 10 = 60 volleys
3 LRM 5 = 120 volleys

1800 rounds = 1800 damage

Another error I see a lot of players make (new and old alike) is put WAY too much stock into DPS. DPS is a good factor, but it's only one of many that should be taken into consideration with building a mech. If your DPS stat after a match averages to 15, hey that's great, if you only do 250 damage, well..... not so much
If your DPS averages to 5 that's not so great, but if you do 600 damage, well... you see where DPS becomes less of a factor.

DPS is also even less of a factor for LRMs honestly. Your DPS doesn't account for flight time, trajectory, cover, etc.

Here's an example of where DPS is a useless stat for LRMs:

I'm in a lrum boat (I use 10s sometimes depending on the build and do this quite often with them) that runs 4 LRM 10s and lets say (just for simplicity of math) I have 10 tons of ammo. I see an assault lance stomping across the map at 800 meters trying to get around to a better firing position on our main force. Our main force is tied up in a firefight and won't be able to adjust to a new position quickly enough.

I cycle through my LRM 10s and fire each one at a different target in that lance. Now those pilots don't know if it's 5 missiles or 500 missiles incoming, all they know is their cockpit is now lit up like Xmas and they got missiles coming in. This forces them to stall their push and seek cover. I can then keep an eye on them and suppress as needed while going back to supporting the main firefight.

Due to weight and ammo restrictions it's a lot less feasible to run a well rounded mech capable of doing something on top of being a lurm support build with smaller launcher sizes. They also extend ammo. I can afford to fire off more dummy shots and searching shots with the same amount of ammo because each volley consumes less ammo overall.

Anyone who says "(insert weapon here) is useless" is giving a very biased OR very ignorant opinion most times.

Flamers suck
period

Small lasers (especially IS) suck
period
(although they do have a niche usage on certain builds which are usually cheese builds)

Other than that, I can't think of a single weapon system that isn't used or viable.

I run 3 LRM 10s on my Whammy and it regularly breaks 400 damage and gets a couple of assists. If LRM 10s were anywhere near as useless as some would lead you to believe, that just wouldn't be common results for that build or weapon system.

Anyhow, my .002 when it comes to LRM10s in comparison with other tube sizes.