46 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Since your tier bar advancing effectively has nothing to do with performance, short of literally banworthy actions, you're not gonna see it go down in the long term.

And that's honestly wrong. If everyone ends up in T3, it just means you're right back to a queue that may actually be worse than the old ELO system, and that really takes talent at screwing up.

[1Grimbane]

ahhh... is psr better than elo there is a debate and a half

[Johnny Gorbachev]

http://mwomercs.com/...ccbill-farming/

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Tier 4 is the magic tier.

Opponents were just as bad as tier 5 (and many probably were tier 5) yet your ego felt better because you were not in the bottom tier.

[Ashvins]

Roadkill, on 08 February 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Actually the only thing it can't do in a loss is "drop a little bit." The possibilies in a loss are:

0-100: drop the max
100-250: drop a moderate amount
250-400: no change
400+: go up a little bit

In a win those change to:

0-100: no change
100-250: go up a little bit
250-400: go up a moderate amount
400+: go up the max

So while it is true that things are skewed toward raising your PSR, that is only true if you're scoring 250+ on average. Below 250 your PSR is actually dropping (assuming a 50/50 WLR) because you're "dropping a moderate amount" in a loss and only "going up a little bit" in a win.

It isn't as cut and dried as people make it out to be. It is true that there's an element of "XP bar" in it, but there's also an element of skill because you do have to be able to score 250+ regularly for your PSR to go up. Of course, that's really not that hard, so for most people the bar will behave more like an XP bar than a skill bar.

For the most part this is true. But you sometimes get "stuck" with a "terribad" team. Being T2 this happen often on a long wait for match. MM can't find enough same tier players so it will throw one or two High Tier players in with many low tier players averaging their PSR. Yet the other team will have the same PSR roughly (within a few points according to Russ) but the overall team skill of the first group will be less. This results in the first team loosing a few noobs quickly (often in assaults) imbalancing the teams. This just gets worse as more and more players die. So near the end of match the T1 or T2 player may be ganged up on by 6+ enemy's and no matter how good you are you will go down.

This will cost that higher Tier player PSR because often it goes from 0/0 to 0/6 in a few minutes and the feeding frenzy starts.The enemy rushes you and your lucky to get 300 damage not to mention a 250+ match score. This is what slows down the climb for the good players. I took a break from MWO just as the PSR was introduced. I was dumped into the middle of T3 when I started playing again. I have quickly risen to T2 but the matches like the one above have slowed my progression down. It seems to happen more and more often. Then I'll get a few matches where my team aren't total noobs and jump up the ranks some more.

Too often higher tier players will get thrown into a lower tier match and their PSR brings the average up enough to hinder them by putting noobs in the match with them. I know why the MM does this (russ gave a good explanation in the recent town hall) But I still don't have to like it.

To the OP:
Your just getting into the more competitive matches, they are far from what most of us consider competitive drops. Your starting to face on occasion T2-T1 players and some of us are really good. A few even to the point where you'll swear their hacking the game. Don't let it discourage you. A few pointers are to stay with the group, don't leave your assaults behind, and focus fire on the enemy.

These three things will help immensely in T3 matches.

[1Grimbane]

^ that's kinda the best explanation i've heard in a while

[LegendaryArticuno]

People don't learn how to press R and group up until Tier 2.

[1Grimbane]

yep all us undehive 3's have no idea what the button does.. i thought it meant eload but my lases neve seem to un out of light bullets, so i gave up on it and popped it off my laptop

[Prokust]

MrMadguy, on 08 February 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

No. PSR is way too biased towards increasing. PSR can't be dropped on win and can be dropped only a little bit on loss. Your average match score should be lower then 100 in order to drop. You are expected to stabilize at 175 match score, which is extremely low. So, I guess, you are doomed to have terrible matches forever, like me. I'm in same boat. I was placed at 50% Tier 3 due to "statistics of recently played matches" (I was in ELO Hell - constant losses and stomps), I'm having extremely terrible matches and still can't drop even a little bit. I'm casual player and assumed, that I can play solo at least via pug queue.

But no. PSR is way too W/L dependent and W/L - is nothing, but a number, for solo player in pug queue. Winning and losing - are completely random in pug queue - nothing depends on you. But according to Paul this is done to encourage team play. WHAT TEAM PLAY? In pug queue??? I don't play CW. I don't play group queue. Leave your "team play" crap for this two. Can I find a place for myself at least somewhere in this game? I want my PSR rating to represent my REAL SKILL AND PERFORMANCE - not ephemeral W/L. Tier 3 Hell - deal with it or quit, till PSR won't be fixed.

And don't tell me, that something depends on me - that I should adapt or improve. About an hour ago a had a match. I really regret now, that I haven't made a screenshot of it. During this match I realized, why my good matches happen so rarely. I had a long queue time, so, I guess, dump valves to Tier 5 were opened. In this match two players on my team dealt 900dmg and one player on other team dealt 1k dmg. I earned 3 kills, 300k CB, dealt 900dmg and my match score was around 600. All other players were complete noobs - 2 last players on my team were doing nothing, except constantly overheating.

So, nothing depends on me - everything depends on matchmaker only. It's responsible for putting me into right teams against right enemies. And if I works terribly - there nothing I can do to deal with it some way. Just because the opposite to having decent match, when you put with/against complete noobs - is true too. When you put with/against too skilled players - you will suck, no matter what. As simple, as that, sorry.

Your matches should be even worse, then this one:

When i read your posts, i always ask myself....why the hell is this guy playing this game? Really? Rooaaar...mm is bad givin me constant rofl stomps but i wont't adapt nor will i try to play as a team cuz pugs suck and this isnt cw...rooaaar.

[Moldur]

Sorry, but you are where you are supposed to be. I know people don't think about it this way in their heads, but wanting to go down tiers is the same as asking to go back to seal clubbing.

There are people that cannot get out of Tier 4, and you think sand-bagging in Tier 3 is hard. Think about that for a moment.

[MrMadguy]

Roadkill, on 08 February 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Actually the only thing it can't do in a loss is "drop a little bit." The possibilies in a loss are:

0-100: drop the max
100-250: drop a moderate amount
250-400: no change
400+: go up a little bit

In a win those change to:

0-100: no change
100-250: go up a little bit
250-400: go up a moderate amount
400+: go up the max

So while it is true that things are skewed toward raising your PSR, that is only true if you're scoring 250+ on average. Below 250 your PSR is actually dropping (assuming a 50/50 WLR) because you're "dropping a moderate amount" in a loss and only "going up a little bit" in a win.

It isn't as cut and dried as people make it out to be. It is true that there's an element of "XP bar" in it, but there's also an element of skill because you do have to be able to score 250+ regularly for your PSR to go up. Of course, that's really not that hard, so for most people the bar will behave more like an XP bar than a skill bar.

You are wrong. I guess you're referencing to this picture?

The problem is in fact, that it says "Smallest rise", "Smallest drop", "Medium rise", "Medium drop", "Largest rise", "Largest drop", but it doesn't say, that "Smallest rise" = "Smallest drop", "Smallest rise" for win = "Smallest rise" for loss, "Medium rise" = "Medium drop" and "Largest rise" = "Largest drop". This values aren't absolute - they are relative to win and lose. It just says - "this is the smallest rise, you can have, when you lose", NOT absolute smallest rise, that is equal to smallest rise, you can have, when you win.

The only reference point - is "No change". Zero is zero - it's absolute. And simple logic suggests, that scales are linear and equal, but shifted against each other - which leads to my picture, which represents ABSOLUTE values, not RELATIVE. And my own experience suggests, that it's right - you can have 50% of Tier 3 rise in a matter of 30 matches, when you perform well, but it will require thousands of extremely terrible matches in order to drop.

Edited by MrMadguy, 08 February 2016 - 11:39 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

I just got to T3 the otherday myself, Honestly I haven't really noticed much of a difference in my performance but I suppose being a founder with plenty of exp I deserve to be there atleast in the lower T3.

At first I was like oh no what have I done? I am going to have a terrible time in T3 but to me the derpyness of teams is still there.

[DovisKhan]

1Grimbane, on 08 February 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

i spent months trying to drop back into tier 4 now i'm further into 3 than ever . it is actually hard to sandbag short of running and suiciding each and every match even then you might notice a raise in psr lol

That's cause if you do good you don't lose psr in losing matches and you pretty much always gain it on a winning match, so unless you suicide dive you will rise, slower or faster

[Widowmaker1981]

Ignore MrMadGuy. Hes mad, cuz hes bad.

I mean, he is right about the fact that PSR calcs should be changed to be less win reliant, but the other crap he comes out with? lol

Hes just here for a single player experience and getting upset that multiplayer pvp doesnt work that way (i mean, "you always have to be well above average to have good games" - so its only a good game if he, personally, dominates. What about the other 23 people in the game? they can't ALL dominate...)

[Johnny Gorbachev]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 February 2016 - 01:12 AM, said:

Ignore MrMadGuy. Hes mad, cuz hes bad.

I mean, he is right about the fact that PSR calcs should be changed to be less win reliant, but the other crap he comes out with? lol

Hes just here for a single player experience and getting upset that multiplayer pvp doesnt work that way (i mean, "you always have to be well above average to have good games" - so its only a good game if he, personally, dominates. What about the other 23 people in the game? they can't ALL dominate...)

Any system which doesn't use wins and losses to measure player ability is a **** system. This is why there are so many heavies in que. Assaults get punished too easily when the team abandons them leaving them to a poor score with no PSR gain. Lights can't statpad enough because they die too fast in brawls and sniping with them does too little damage leaving them with a **** PSR gain. Since damage and not dying is the only stat that matters everyone leans towards meta heavies.

The whole system is just a glorified exp bar, everyone eventually gets to T1 due to the inflated gains from just farming damage.

Edited by Johnny Gorbachev, 09 February 2016 - 01:29 AM.

[jss78]

This is a common predicament. In my experience, short of intentionally playing badly, I don't think sand-bagging can really be done in the current system.

It depends on how well you play of course, but for me playing "bad" mechs certainly doesn't do it. I've been recently rolling in superstock Wolverines and Hunchbacks, and even in Tier 2 my e-peen bar keeps going towards Tier 1. I'm not a "comp tier" player.

Creating a new account won't help either. It seems that the PSR system puts much increased weight on your performance in your account's first few games. I recently created a late-night derping account, and shot from Tier 5 to half-way up Tier 4 after the first game. After six games I was in Tier 3. I'm not sure if this was there from the get-go, or added later to protect Steam players from troll accounts. Either way, if you're an experienced player, you'll shoot straight back to where you were (or close).

The good news is that it's not so awful in higher tiers. What is different is that you'll get demolished in seconds if you face more than a couple enemies alone. So the days of being able to go it alone and roll whatever comes your way are gone. I'm not sure this is a bad thing. But position carefully within your team and aim true, and you can still pull your weight in just about any mech.

[El Bandito]

Prokust, on 08 February 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

When i read your posts, i always ask myself....why the hell is this guy playing this game? Really? Rooaaar...mm is bad givin me constant rofl stomps but i wont't adapt nor will i try to play as a team cuz pugs suck and this isnt cw...rooaaar.

Guess MrMadGuy thinks the world must revolve around him.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 February 2016 - 01:58 AM.

[Karamarka]

Tier 3 got harder because you are now put in matches sometimes with tier 1 and 2 players.

Really unfortunate for both parties, they get steamrolled and at the same time don't contribute to the team. I still see people dying with 30 damage done and thinking "why are they even in my games"

Edited by Karamarka, 09 February 2016 - 02:05 AM.

[QuantumButler]

the PSR system is pretty much entirely pointless, it's basically just an xp bar that measures how long you have played this game.

Assuming even a slight bit of hand eye coordination you will always increase the bar slightly on average at least until tier 2, given enough time everyone will eventually reach it, assuming you keep playing this game and are not truly, irredeemably awful.

[Roadkill]

MrMadguy, on 08 February 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

You are wrong.

Says I'm wrong, then comes to the exact same conclusion. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Yes, that's the picture in question. Please note that in that picture there is no "smallest drop" bar. Also note that the lengths of the bars refer to the match score, not the amount of the drop. Player research has determined that the match score "buckets" are 0-100, 100-250, 250-400, and 400+. Player research has also determined that the relative sizes are, in fact, the same. "Largest drop" and "Largest rise" do in fact mean the same amount.

The one thing that you seem to missing is that there's a multiplier applied to your PSR adjustments over your first matches. (The exact number of matches isn't known, as far as I know.) This prevents "smurfing" because a good player who creates a new account is going to see their PSR rise extremely rapidly.

It doesn't take "thousands of extremely terrible matches" for your PSR to drop any more than it takes thousands of matches for your PSR to rise. Though, relatively speaking, it does take roughly twice as many matches for your PSR to drop as it does for it to rise because, as you and I have both pointed out, you can't actually lose PSR in a win.