162 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Troutmonkey, on 08 February 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

Too be fair I am simultaneously debating against several terrible ideas in several different threads at the same time. I can't be expected to be perfect in my dismantling of all of them.

Yikes! I knew I was starting to mix up you and the tortous. But in any case, my point still stands.

(And post slightly modified).

Edited by Mystere, 09 February 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I would just add some angles to the issue.

Anything being fired at more than a 15 degree angle reduces damage by 10%

Anything being fired at more than 45 degrees reduces damage by 25%

Anything beyond 45 degrees, has to take into consideration if it is a different component so we are back the rest; if it is the same component at a reference angle beyond 45 degrees, I would cut damage by 50%.

This would solve everything (call it ghost geometry).

[Kuritaclan]

jss78, on 08 February 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

But "ghost range" is nothing like lock-dependent convergence. Ghost range equalled lasers magically losing power into thin air without target lock. Lock-dependent convergence by comparison makes perfect sense: how could your weapons possibly converge at a specific distance without a target lock?

You don't really asked this question.

[Kuritaclan]

Troutmonkey, on 08 February 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

Mister Blastman, on 08 February 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

Who CARES if top players are unaffected! Top players are top because they are GOOD.

And yes, they would be affected. It would be harder to hit those boxes as there are more of them. So now you have to try harder to poke through the armor.

This is not a problem. This is a challenge. Games are supposed to be challenging.

More hit boxes = Less armour between each hitbox = Easier to drill through with a pinpoint alpha strike. You are literally advocating for a system that would make PPFLD more effective.

Also, you seem to be the kind of guy that would accept randomized keybinds as a "challenge" that "skilled" players should overcome instead of a frustration that would drive off players.

You just don't understand that when you drill a hole into the armor and the component under this is distructed, a second PPFLD ALPHAstrike in the same spot does acompish nothing and therefore you need to aim multiple sections to take out the whole bodypart! And this translate to more skill and also higher TTK.

[cazidin]

Alright. Let's just all agree that adding additional hitboxes is a terrible idea, no offense to Mister Blastman, that PGI will never, ever implement and goes against every previous MW game. Then let's agree that high alphas are a problem and that lock-on convergence will NOT fix it!

Okay. Now. Let's list a few solutions.
1.A proper heat scale! Are you at 60% or more? Warmer! 70% or more? Hot! 80% or more? Roasted alive!
2.FF reduces damage taken by 10-15%. Less for Clan. (They trade more weight savings and fewer critical slots for less protection. IS lasers deal less damage anyway and this makes FF competitive with ES)
3.This isn't for TTK. It's for my personal taste. Bring Medium and Large Laser CDs in sync. Maybe increase their CD slightly to lower DPS.
4.More internal structure HP or Armor Quirks.

1 of these will result in pilots thinking before they alpha strike. 2 of them will increase TTK.

[wanderer]

Giving FF armor damage reduction utterly hoses other armor options later, like Ferro-lamellar or hardened armors.

So scratch that one.

[cazidin]

We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it, Wanderer. Let's balance the game NOW. Not in a few years.

[Kuritaclan]

cazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Alright. Let's just all agree that adding additional hitboxes is a terrible idea, no offense to Mister Blastman, ...

Well you failed.

cazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it, Wanderer. Let's balance the game NOW. Not in a few years.

This is not how it works.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 February 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Mystere]

Aphoticus, on 09 February 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

I would just add some angles to the issue.

Anything being fired at more than a 15 degree angle reduces damage by 10%

Anything being fired at more than 45 degrees reduces damage by 25%

Anything beyond 45 degrees, has to take into consideration if it is a different component so we are back the rest; if it is the same component at a reference angle beyond 45 degrees, I would cut damage by 50%.

This would solve everything (call it ghost geometry).

Yuk!

Edited by Mystere, 09 February 2016 - 02:57 PM.

[cazidin]

Well, game balance does take time but we won't get those armor types for a few years unless we jump ahead in the timeline and if that happens then PGI could adjust the armor types accordingly.

[Mystere]

cazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Alright. Let's just all agree that adding additional hitboxes is a terrible idea ...

Huh? How did you arrive at such a conclusion when the post just above yours suggests otherwise?

[MischiefSC]

A) I didn't mind ghost range. Added a degree of complexity in performance. Convergence based would be better though.

B ) pinpoint accuracy breaks a ton of stuff like relative value of missiles, LBX and burst fire weapons as well as over emphasizing boating.

That's just to name a couple. Prefect precision reduces the skill level of performance. $60 gaming mouse kicks you up a few notches and a little twitch practice makes you good to go. Positioning is important but you can mutable through with some twitch skills.

Adding a layer of complexity to getting precision increases TTK and relative value of the remaining 70% of weapons in game and stretches out the skill curve. Still ends in the same place it just makes the trip from peak to end a bit more gentle. That's a very good thing.

[cazidin]

It's quite simple, really. I reviewed the idea and utterly dismissed it.

[MischiefSC]

Also, the op uses the phrase "lets all agree " before stating his personal opinion we don't agree with.

So, cazidin, nobody cares what you have and haven't dismissed. No, we certainly don't all agree with you.

So let's all agree that OP is completely wrong, what sort of convergence based solution would we like to consider?

[Troutmonkey]

cazidin, on 09 February 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Okay. Now. Let's list a few solutions.
1.A proper heat scale! Are you at 60% or more? Warmer! 70% or more? Hot! 80% or more? Roasted alive!
2.FF reduces damage taken by 10-15%. Less for Clan. (They trade more weight savings and fewer critical slots for less protection. IS lasers deal less damage anyway and this makes FF competitive with ES)

1 of these will result in pilots thinking before they alpha strike. 2 of them will increase TTK.

The problem with the heat scale is always going to be ballistics, specifically gauss rifles. 0 heat for instant pin point damage to a single component. How do you solve that?
We've tried lots of solutions and had to add ad hoc solutions all over the place just to combat 1 weapon. Charge up mechanics, limits on numbers fired to stop quad gauss dires.
I think we can ditch the 2 gauss limit and just add significant accuracy penalties for firing 3 or more.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 09 February 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[oldradagast]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

The problem with the heat scale is always going to be ballistics, specifically gauss rifles. 0 heat for instant pin point damage to a single component. How do you solve that?
We've tried lots of solutions and had to add ad hoc solutions all over the place just to combat 1 weapon. Charge up mechanics, limits on numbers fired to stop quad gauss dires.
I think we can ditch the 2 gauss limit and just add significant accuracy penalties for firing 3 or more.

You could add recoil penalties for ballistics, heat for energy, and some mix of them for missiles. If done right, the net effect in reducing the idiocy of pinpoint accuracy while simultaneously increasing the realism and simulation factor in the game would be comparable across weapon systems.

Edited by oldradagast, 09 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

oldradagast, on 09 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

You could add recoil penalties for ballistics, heat for energy, and some mix of them for missiles. If done right, the net effect in reducing the idiocy of pinpoint accuracy while simultaneously increasing the realism and simulation factor in the game would be comparable across weapon systems.

One of the biggest issues with the heat scale is the way it drastically effects the pacing of the game. Anything heat based becomes pretty much useless as you have to wait for your mech to cool down a lot. Meanwhile, ballistics users are still going to run around firing UAC5's all day without a care, even if their accuracy is slightly penalised.

If the heat scale is too harsh it will completely shift the meta and unbalance the game.
If the heat scale is too weak, it won't affect player behaviour.

[cazidin]

Little or no heat is the trade off for how bulky/how heavy Ballistics are. I don't think that much else can be done about the Gauss Rifle without turning it into a terrible weapon.

True, Troutmonkey. That's why we'd need a good, balanced heat scale.

Edited by cazidin, 09 February 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Meanwhile, ballistics users are still going to run around firing UAC5's all day without a care, even if their accuracy is slightly penalized

Every weapon type has it's control tools.

Trim ballistic ammo/ton and you're reducing the amount of active firing time a 'Mech has on the field. Increase Gauss cooldown time, for that matter. Make it the true sniper rifle- slow, high damage, great reach, limited reloads.

Heat is one control tool that's missing. It's not the only tool in the box.

[Tarl Cabot]

Just to add about the COF, would the CoF bloom be adjustable based on distance? The bloom effect being smaller farther away the mech is, so that it has a high probability of hitting the mech but not all in the same location.

Take 3 ERLL, the bloom being small enough that as long as the CoF is centered over the mech torso, the lasers hit the mech and as the duration continues, as long as the crosshair is on the mech, the bloom shrinks.

Or to put it in another way, 3 different CoF setups (distance) with 2-3 subsets based on heat of firing mech, comparable speed of both mechs and time on target.