149 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i was thinking that it should require target lock to make guns converge on a target. the whole point of target lock is to get a fix on an object's relative position. if that doesn't happen then how can the mech compute a firing solution?

now this wont affect good players at all, but it does encourage good habits (like hitting r) for lower skill players.

you might also give targeting computers and command consoles another feature precomputed fire solutions for all mechs on radar. there are situations where hitting r just aint possible. for example, lights circling close in (and no 360 radar module). this could also be used in conjunction with bap to get instant convergence solutions on ecm protected targets that cant be locked.

[Troutmonkey]

Might as well just have all your guns not be able to shoot without a lock, because without convergence that's about as effective as they'll be.

Not hitting R is already punished by not getting important information on enemy mechs. It needs to be encouraged, but not by blatant punishment.

Just imagine new players jumping straight into the game, running around, shooting, see all their shots miss even though they were aimed correctly. It doesn't make sense to the average player for that to happen. So what we get there is frustration, resentment, and 1 less player.

Other reasons why this is bad (I'm getting really sick of debunking this)
1. ECM becomes way too powerful
2. UAVs become mandatory cbill sinks
3. It doesn't fix any of the problems that we currently face
4. There's probably more, maybe check one of the 5 other threads I've commented in

Edited by Troutmonkey, 10 February 2016 - 12:38 AM.

[Wolfways]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

1. ECM becomes way too powerful

Becomes?

[Alistair Winter]

I don't hate it, but ECM would be a problem. Everyone would need ECM and TAG to compete.

[Kilo 40]

for the most part, I like it.

[wanderer]

Perfect convergence? Sure thing.

I might have started that whole idea a few months back or something.

[Hawk_eye]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

Just imagine new players jumping straight into the game, running around, shooting, see all there shots miss even though they were aimed correctly. It doesn't make sense to the average player for that to happen. So what we get there is frustration, resentment, and 1 less player.

Not sure why those shots would all miss without conversion. It´s not as if weapons would suddenly shoot at 45° angels all of a sudden.
I´d assume a "standard" conversion to be either at the point of effective range (i.e. medium lasers would default to converge at 270 meter) or on a point at infinity, basically making the weapons all shoot parallel.

So even if you have not locked your target, your shots would hit (if your aim is correct), just not on the same spot.

I agree that ECM would be something that had to be worked with, though.
On the other hand, isn´t information warfare something everyone and his dog wants to be expanded upon?

[MechWarrior849305]

I wish I had infinite distance convergence switcher rather than object distance convergence. It would be WAAAAAAY easier to kill any light without any noticeable trouble when you shoot your shots for pre-evaluated distance ahead of it instead of constant jitter in convergence caused by terrain.
We asked for this for sooooo long, yet we're still at starting point

[Troutmonkey]

Bukkakechans flying futapantsu, on 09 February 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

I wish I had infinite distance convergence switcher rather than object distance convergence. It would be WAAAAAAY easier to kill any light without any noticeable trouble when you shoot your shots for pre-evaluated distance ahead of it instead of constant jitter in convergence caused by terrain.
We asked for this for sooooo long, yet we're still at starting point

You see my demo? Zero convergence a sure fire way NOT to hit a light mech

[1Grimbane]

no. OP your drunk go home

[Ratpoison]

GHOST CONVERGENCE has the exact same effect on gameplay that the awful GHOST RANGE mechanic did on the PTS. Never again.

[Madcap72]

People complain this game isn't enough like battletech.


So yea, do it like BT, and associated lore. Require target locks to be able to hit anything, and have the distance those locks are achievable at very short

[Troutmonkey]

Antecursor Venatus, on 09 February 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

Not sure why those shots would all miss without conversion. It´s not as if weapons would suddenly shoot at 45° angels all of a sudden.
I´d assume a "standard" conversion to be either at the point of effective range (i.e. medium lasers would default to converge at 270 meter) or on a point at infinity, basically making the weapons all shoot parallel.

So even if you have not locked your target, your shots would hit (if your aim is correct), just not on the same spot.

I agree that ECM would be something that had to be worked with, though.
On the other hand, isn´t information warfare something everyone and his dog wants to be expanded upon?

Convergence at Infinity / No Convergence will mean that wide mounted hardpoints will have all their shots go straight past mechs on their left or right. It would be physically impossible to hit a mechs leg by aiming at it.
Convergence at X distance causes weapon to go "cross eyed" after that point and for the shots to wildly shoot to either side. Medium lasers set to converge at 270m continue to shot past that point and will never hit anything beyond 300m

[Jaqir]

Makes all kinds of sense, and would encourage more patient style of play. ECM needs work regardless (only soft-shielding buddies in the bubble comes to mind, slowing missile locks and reducing convergence amount perhaps), could be changed together.

[Pjwned]

Troutmonkey, on 09 February 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

Might as well just have all your guns not be able to shoot without a lock, because without convergence that's about as effective as they'll be.

Putting aside that's what LRMs and SSRMs have to deal with...

That's wrong for any direct fire weapon, not having perfect convergence at all times is not the end of the world unless you can't adapt at all, and keep in mind convergence would return to its perfect state when you do get a target lock.

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Not hitting R is already punished by not getting important information on enemy mechs. It needs to be encouraged, but not by blatant punishment.

Seems like a proper incentive to hit R to me and it also tones down the perpetual instant, pinpoint, perfect convergence which is something that needs to be addressed, so...I don't agree.

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Just imagine new players jumping straight into the game, running around, shooting, see all their shots miss even though they were aimed correctly. It doesn't make sense to the average player for that to happen. So what we get there is frustration, resentment, and 1 less player.

That would say more about the game being bad if people were confused by it due to lack of explanations, and if they still couldn't understand it after having it explained then that's on them because it's not a hard concept.

Quote

Other reasons why this is bad (I'm getting really sick of debunking this)

1. ECM becomes way too powerful

It's already way too powerful, what it would do is highlight how absolutely broken ECM is to even the the most staunch ECM apologists and how it destroys all potential for anything resembling something close to actual info warfare.

Quote

2. UAVs become mandatory cbill sinks

They actually don't unless ECM is left as the unbalanced mess that it is.

Quote

3. It doesn't fix any of the problems that we currently face

Except that it fixes the instant, pinpoint, perfect convergence at all times which causes (and has caused) huge problems while also leaving convergence intact and giving some real importance to info warfare.

Sounds like it fixes problems to me.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 February 2016 - 01:28 AM.

[MrMadguy]

How many times should I repeat? We don't need even more invulnerable Lighs. Aren't Arctic Cheaters cheating enough?

Also, yes. We don't need to have imbalance between 'Mechs, that have wide and narrow hardpoints. Isn't it enough for you, that 'Mechs with high hardpoints have advantage over those, who don't have them?

Edited by MrMadguy, 10 February 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

We've already got a rangefinder on our targeting reticule so we should get pretty good convergance without lock.

But at pressent our targeting system (appart from LRM's) is just a glorified sensor.

So giving us a reason to tell our targeting system what to shoot should have an accuracy bonus of some sort.

[Ratpoison]

Doman Hugin, on 10 February 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

We've already got a rangefinder on our targeting reticule so we should get pretty good convergance without lock.

But at pressent our targeting system (appart from LRM's) is just a glorified sensor.

So giving us a reason to tell our targeting system what to shoot should have an accuracy bonus of some sort.

Well in MWO, accuracy buffs come in the form of laser duration reductions, and velocity increases for ballistics and missiles. It would be interesting to test what would happen if locks gave a mild 10% buff to those stats, although laser durations as they stand would have to be nerfed for medium and large class lasers to make it work out.

[Karamarka]

No

Because locking targets is dependent on your ping

It's server side instead of client side (For no reason) therefore, people with higher ping cant even lock properly.

Just like zoom actually. Server side instead of client side for no reason other then to make people feel lagged.

[sneeking]

No because convergence to reticle should be on the mouse wheel and there should be no auto convergence mechanic.

It should have a range indicator and hud should always show distance to reticle, the pilot should always have to make sure those match when engaging a single target with direct fire. In addition it will add the ability to converge manually on one target for direct fire while locking another target with indirect weapons.

All you need do is remove the auto lock when placing reticle on a target and remove auto convergence from the locked target

Oh the joy it would bring !