149 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

sneeking, on 10 February 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

No because convergence to reticle should be on the mouse wheel and there should be no auto convergence mechanic.

It should have a range indicator and hud should always show distance to reticle, the pilot should always have to make sure those match when engaging a single target with direct fire. In addition it will add the ability to converge manually on one target for direct fire while locking another target with indirect weapons.

All you need do is remove the auto lock when placing reticle on a target and remove auto convergence from the locked target

Oh the joy it would bring !

Wouldn't that just be a final kick in the nads to joystick users.

I can guarantee you that less than 5% of the playerbase who uses keyboard/mouse will want to deal with that nonsense, regardless.

[MeiSooHaityu]

If a change must be made to convergence...

No, not on target lock, but on mouse-over.

When the cursor mouses over an enemy, the weapons are in a lose-ish cluster and after a half second or so, tighten into a pinpoint. A lock isn't needed and if ECM assists a mech at all, it might be in delaying the convergence to pinpoint an additional .10 of a second or so.

If convergence had to be changed, that seems like a better solution to me.

[Troutmonkey]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 February 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

If a change must be made to convergence...

No, not on target lock, but on mouse-over.

When the cursor mouses over an enemy, the weapons are in a lose-ish cluster and after a half second or so, tighten into a pinpoint. A lock isn't needed and if ECM assists a mech at all, it might be in delaying the convergence to pinpoint an additional .10 of a second or so.

If convergence had to be changed, that seems like a better solution to me.

Can't be done. Immediately breaks when you think about weapons that require a lead time

[sneeking]

Well i for one would like to dial in convergence range and have it unaffected by locks or reticle position over terrain or other mechs which are not intended for those direct fire weapons.

I would also like my lock on a chosen mech to be persistent when i engage another through direct fire, the lock can drop in and out as my direct fire engagement sees that peripheral target shift in and out of fov but i hate that auto lock thing just for looking at a mech especialy seen as it gives them blips if they carry derp. This would double as an indirect derp nerf which is due.

[Troutmonkey]

Pjwned, on 10 February 2016 - 01:28 AM, said:

Putting aside that's what LRMs and SSRMs have to deal with...

That's wrong for any direct fire weapon, not having perfect convergence at all times is not the end of the world unless you can't adapt at all, and keep in mind convergence would return to its perfect state when you do get a target lock.



Seems like a proper incentive to hit R to me and it also tones down the perpetual instant, pinpoint, perfect convergence which is something that needs to be addressed, so...I don't agree.



That would say more about the game being bad if people were confused by it due to lack of explanations, and if they still couldn't understand it after having it explained then that's on them because it's not a hard concept.



It's already way too powerful, what it would do is highlight how absolutely broken ECM is to even the the most staunch ECM apologists and how it destroys all potential for anything resembling something close to actual info warfare.



They actually don't unless ECM is left as the unbalanced mess that it is.



Except that it fixes the instant, pinpoint, perfect convergence at all times which causes (and has caused) huge problems while also leaving convergence intact and giving some real importance to info warfare.

Sounds like it fixes problems to me.

Here, download this: https://dl.dropboxus...ergenceTest.rar
Now try and shoot stuff without convergence. Pro-tip YOU CANT
And your solution to fixing ECM, is by making it more broken?
Whether a concept is easy to understand or not doesn't effect how dumb it is or isn't. In this case, easy to understand, still dumb.
You're not solving the pinpoint mess, you're simply delaying it by a whole 1 second. CONGRATS! I usually have locks all the time anyway, usually well before I'm even in LoS to the enemy. Lock on convergence is not a solution at all.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Troutmonkey, on 10 February 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

Can't be done. Immediately breaks when you think about weapons that require a lead time

Good point.

Energy only *shrug*.

IDK...

I just wouldn't count on target aquisition unless we are going to make a lock almost instant and remove ECM's ability to prevent a lock :/

[Troutmonkey]

sneeking, on 10 February 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

No because convergence to reticle should be on the mouse wheel and there should be no auto convergence mechanic.

Step 1:
Download this demo: https://dl.dropboxus...ergenceTest.rar
Step 2:
Press Enter until it says "MANUAL CONVERGENCE"
Step 3.
Walking around while constantly adjusting your manual convergence point, taking care not to set it too low less all your shots go cross eyed
Step 4.
Give up on manual/ fixed/ no convergence as any kind of viable idea.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 10 February 2016 - 02:52 AM.

[sneeking]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 02:35 AM, said:

Wouldn't that just be a final kick in the nads to joystick users.

I can guarantee you that less than 5% of the playerbase who uses keyboard/mouse will want to deal with that nonsense, regardless.

Not really , they can put it on a hat switch which isn't that different to wheel clicks if the mechanic is given a minimum 20m increment.

[Troutmonkey]

sneeking, on 10 February 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

Not really , they can put it on a hat switch which isn't that different to wheel clicks if the mechanic is given a minimum 20m increment.

please try the demo and then stop saying how easy this is for players to do

[Ratpoison]

sneeking, on 10 February 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

Not really , they can put it on a hat switch which isn't that different to wheel clicks if the mechanic is given a minimum 20m increment.

It would still be something that no one wants to deal with. Fun for hardcore sim fans, not fun for everyone else.

[oldradagast]

A cone of fire is all that is needed. It can vary a bit depending upon heat, recoil, target lock, etc, but that's it. The purpose of a cone of fire is to add a simple, logical, and easy to understand and implement mechanic that reduces the game-breaking effectiveness of instant, pinpoint convergence at long ranges.

The proposed mechanic is simply too brutal. It encourages hiding from everyone - so they can't get locks - and keeping a long distance from targets and taking pot-shots at anything exposed. It discourages brawls because if you brawl, you will get locked, and thus destroyed. In short, it goes too far. The goal is to reduce the insane effectiveness of pinpoint alphas, not make it almost impossible to hit anything.

Edited by oldradagast, 10 February 2016 - 04:19 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 February 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

If a change must be made to convergence...

No, not on target lock, but on mouse-over.

When the cursor mouses over an enemy, the weapons are in a lose-ish cluster and after a half second or so, tighten into a pinpoint. A lock isn't needed and if ECM assists a mech at all, it might be in delaying the convergence to pinpoint an additional .10 of a second or so.

If convergence had to be changed, that seems like a better solution to me.

Can't be done, you are describing the exact system we used to have (delayed convergence - DC) which was removed in favour of instant convergence due to issues with HSR+DC

I like the idea of convergence on lock, with unlocked convergence set at each weapons maximum range, or set manually in the mechlab by the user, it would mean ECM needed modification though. Maybe make arm weapons (with LAAs) have convergence on lock or if no lock convergence on crosshair as now, to buff low mounted arm weapons.

[Hit the Deck]

LordNothing, on 09 February 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

i was thinking that it should require target lock to make guns converge on a target. the whole point of target lock is to get a fix on an object's relative position. if that doesn't happen then how can the mech compute a firing solution?
....

Your Mech (computer) already knows the distance of the object you are aiming at (displayed beside your reticle). It's therefore easy to create a firing solution which makes the guns converge at that point you're aiming at.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Target lock should be an essential part of the game. I mean, were not firing a rifle, which we ADS ourselves. We are firing a battlemech, it uses info gathered from it's Targeting computer to caluclate distance, angle and all that. Not unlike the modern vehicles. They cant just dumbfire at stuff and be effective in the least bit.

I dont even think things like Hellfires would even work without 'pressing R'....

Without target lock, yeah, your weapons should just blankly fire forward, since the arms and mech's systems have nothing to lock onto, and therefore would just sit in their default postions, pointing forward most likely, so you would fire and everything would basically fire in a straight line, with half of it missing.....

Press R, and suddenly your mech has something to lock on.

But hey, dont make the game any more deep then "spam lasers at all the things".

[Pjwned]

Troutmonkey, on 10 February 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

Here, download this: https://dl.dropboxus...ergenceTest.rar
Now try and shoot stuff without convergence. Pro-tip YOU CANT

I understand that and I agree, but I'm suggesting fixed convergence without locks (which is different from zero convergence) and I'm not suggesting that convergence go away completely by any means either.

It does mean that you don't have instant, pinpoint, perfect convergence at all times though, and that's kind of the point.

Quote

And your solution to fixing ECM, is by making it more broken?

No...? ECM needs to not give radar stealth because that's unbalanced as hell, so what I'm saying is to make it far less broken.

Quote

Whether a concept is easy to understand or not doesn't effect how dumb it is or isn't. In this case, easy to understand, still dumb.

A) Moving the goalpost there.

B) It isn't dumb at all, it makes sense and it actually fixes issues.

Quote

You're not solving the pinpoint mess, you're simply delaying it by a whole 1 second. CONGRATS! I usually have locks all the time anyway, usually well before I'm even in LoS to the enemy. Lock on convergence is not a solution at all.

That's where proper info warfare comes in, but even without info warfare adjustments (aside from nerfing ECM, which needs to happen regardless) it would still improve the issues with convergence as it is now.

[Funkin Disher]

Karamarka, on 10 February 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

No

Because locking targets is dependent on your ping

It's server side instead of client side (For no reason) therefore, people with higher ping cant even lock properly.

Just like zoom actually. Server side instead of client side for no reason other then to make people feel lagged.

See now this is a legit argument.

[Mystere]

Troutmonkey, on 10 February 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

Can't be done. Immediately breaks when you think about weapons that require a lead time

But isn't something like that is what is happening now (i.e. convergence point is somewhere else) when you lead a target?

[Mystere]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 02:35 AM, said:

Wouldn't that just be a final kick in the nads to joystick users.

Actually, my Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog says otherwise.

[MischiefSC]

I like something akin to what we had in PTS 3 but with convergence. This helps light and mediums relative to heavies and assaults and helps create role warfare.

Biggest problem is some people just hate targetting stuff for no rational reason.

Also it strongly rewards teamwork, which some people hate.

I'm largely of the opinion "F**k all those people" though so, yeah. Let's use converge to create a viable IW and Role Warfare system.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

LordNothing, on 09 February 2016 - 09:41 PM, said:

i was thinking that it should require target lock to make guns converge on a target. the whole point of target lock is to get a fix on an object's relative position. if that doesn't happen then how can the mech compute a firing solution?

now this wont affect good players at all, but it does encourage good habits (like hitting r) for lower skill players.

you might also give targeting computers and command consoles another feature precomputed fire solutions for all mechs on radar. there are situations where hitting r just aint possible. for example, lights circling close in (and no 360 radar module). this could also be used in conjunction with bap to get instant convergence solutions on ecm protected targets that cant be locked.

Yes it absolutely should.

I really though PGI was going in the right direction until they cowered out of that change.